Re: Interesting day on the Choptank

[Dreampixels]

My point is I do not know how you will get a SOOK as a peeler - They mate on their terminal MOLT - meaning Sally becomes a SOOK on the breeding - NOW she will never MOLT again if she did indeed mateon her FINAL MOLT.

My question becomes, there are all different sizes of sooks and sallies. If a crab increases size by about 25% on each molt after they look like crabs then how do we account for 6 and 7 inch Sooks which means they would have been between 5 and 6 inches when they went thru terminal molting. I myself have never seen to many sallies being carried at 5 inches, normally under 4.

So is the terminal molt determined by the female Crab Biological Chemistry alone and she seeks a mate when it is time, or does she seek a mate and then the a sucessful mating process itself makes her molt terminal.

If her sucessful breeding sends her into her terminal molt then this could account for all the different sizes of SOOKS.

[tugcapt]

I must be lucky then. Two of the doublers I caught this past friday had large peelers with them. One was busting, shell was opened about a quarter inch and she was as large as the male carrying her. The male was light and small(about 5"), we threw them both back.  The other one was a good 5" and I kept the 7" male with her. Many years ago when my father kept wood live boxes, we sluffed crabs in one and would sometimes get very large female peelers to prduce very large softcrabs.

[TAJcrabs]

I have not kept a female crab in MD since the rules changed, but My grandfather taught me a long time ago it was ok to keep a sook, he said that once that apron changed shape they would never mate again and were just going to die. Is this true? Will they never mate again. If they do mate on their terminal molt and after they release the sponge what is the harm in keeping them?

[Crabbyd]

I have not kept a female crab in MD since the rules changed, but My grandfather taught me a long time ago it was ok to keep a sook, he said that once that apron changed shape they would never mate again and were just going to die. Is this true? Will they never mate again. If they do mate on their terminal molt and after they release the sponge what is the harm in keeping them?

http://www.bluecrab.info/mating.html

These sperm are believed to be viable for as long as the female is alive. Although a female will mate only once, she may produce many fertilized egg masses during her lifetime from this single mating. Fertilization occurs each time a new egg mass is produced by the ovaries until the sperm reserves are depleted. Studies in Florida found that some female crabs produce as many as seven broods (sponges) in one year from a single mating, and up to 18 broods over 2–2½ years. Chesapeake Bay female crabs are capable of producing multiple egg masses over several years, though most will not produce more than one or two masses due to their short average life span, typically 1–2 years.

[berettafan]

Interesting point i learned on this board is that mating and spawning are two different events that do not necessarily run immediately together.  that is to say you may pick up a sook that has mated but isn't a sponger yet.  IIRC the idea was they move to saltier waters for spawning.

[Crabbyd]

Interesting point i learned on this board is that mating and spawning are two different events that do not necessarily run immediately together.  that is to say you may pick up a sook that has mated but isn't a sponger yet.  IIRC the idea was they move to saltier waters for spawning.

Many interesting points on the main page of this site.  Steve has done a good job at putting together the information.  Click on the small crab at the bottom of the page to get there.

[Dreampixels]

I must be lucky then. Two of the doublers I caught this past friday had large peelers with them. One was busting, shell was opened about a quarter inch and she was as large as the male carrying her. The male was light and small(about 5"), we threw them both back.  The other one was a good 5" and I kept the 7" male with her. Many years ago when my father kept wood live boxes, we sluffed crabs in one and would sometimes get very large female peelers to prduce very large softcrabs.

Was the female peeler a SOOK?  I have never seen a SOOK as a peeler - only Sallies

[crab-licious]

I have not kept a female crab in MD since the rules changed, but My grandfather taught me a long time ago it was ok to keep a sook, he said that once that apron changed shape they would never mate again and were just going to die. Is this true? Will they never mate again. If they do mate on their terminal molt and after they release the sponge what is the harm in keeping them?

From an experience this past weekend, I would say that is not true.  Caught a mature soft female crab (big apron) with a male "doin the deed".  He had her turned around so they were belly to belly and he had her apron pushed aside and was in the process of making his "deposit"....furthermore, I caught a fully mature female (sook) that was all knocked (sponged) up.....then again who am I but just an ignorant rec....

[tugcapt]

Yes they were. Both were mature, both had adult aprons, both were doublers, both were female and both were TOO large for good bait. Again, That is not the point, IF they allow us to keep "sooks" or Mature females, That doesn't mean I can keep the better bait, the small sally peelers.  I caught maybe half a bushel small sally peelers the over past two months that I had to throw back. IF they say you can keep ALL types of females, not just sooks like it was stated about the rumor, I would be able to keep them.

[jack1747]

I have not kept a female crab in MD since the rules changed, but My grandfather taught me a long time ago it was ok to keep a sook, he said that once that apron changed shape they would never mate again and were just going to die. Is this true? Will they never mate again. If they do mate on their terminal molt and after they release the sponge what is the harm in keeping them?

Is this true?Yes and no.. The Sook is not going to mate again but she will save the males sperm to use to fertilize multiable spawns over the next season or more.  Like D says click on the little crab at the bottom of every page and read, read, read...

[jack1747]

From an experience this past weekend, I would say that is not true.  Caught a mature soft female crab (big apron) with a male "doin the deed".  He had her turned around so they were belly to belly and he had her apron pushed aside and was in the process of making his "deposit"....furthermore, I caught a fully mature female (sook) that was all knocked (sponged) up.....then again who am I but just an ignorant rec....

Yes and no... You caught a female that just had it's terminal molt. If you would had caught the doublers sooner, the sook would have been a sally.  The jimmie cradled the sally (she had the triangle apron) until she shed (she then had the dome shaped apron).  He then flipped her over and mated.  She took in the sperm and saved it to use to fertilize her batch off eggs as they developed (more than one time).  The Jimmie then continued to cradle the now Sook until her shell was hard enough to protect her. 

[thunderhawk]

EXACTLY! you the man jack! 

[R D]

My point is I do not know how you will get a SOOK as a peeler - They mate on their terminal MOLT - meaning Sally becomes a SOOK on the breeding - NOW she will never MOLT again if she did indeed mateon her FINAL MOLT.

My question becomes, there are all different sizes of sooks and sallies. If a crab increases size by about 25% on each molt after they look like crabs then how do we account for 6 and 7 inch Sooks which means they would have been between 5 and 6 inches when they went thru terminal molting. I myself have never seen to many sallies being carried at 5 inches, normally under 4.

So is the terminal molt determined by the female Crab Biological Chemistry alone and she seeks a mate when it is time, or does she seek a mate and then the a sucessful mating process itself makes her molt terminal.

If her sucessful breeding sends her into her terminal molt then this could account for all the different sizes of SOOKS.

The peeler is in the process of the terminal molt long before the shedding and mating take place and will be a sook even if not mated,you get big sooks from big peelers.  Every now and then I shed a fully mature sook,there may be picture on here somewhere,I think Joecrabs has seen it and maybe CrabbyD,last year I shed 12 or 14 but only 3 or 4 this year,mainly because of deckhands that don't spot them while culling.

[camoboat09]

The resource needs time to recover, just cuz you have a run of juvees and sooks doesnt mean it's out of the woods yet, let the females go and see where we are in 2-3 years or so, I want my kids and they're kids to enjoy crabbing as I do,in years to come......
 just my opinion

[R D]

The resource needs time to recover, just cuz you have a run of juvees and sooks doesnt mean it's out of the woods yet, let the females go and see where we are in 2-3 years or so, I want my kids and they're kids to enjoy crabbing as I do,in years to come......
 just my opinion

"Let the girls go" even though chances are good she never got laid and her eggs are unfertilized because of misplaced beliefs and a$$ backward fishery's management.

[Dreampixels]

The peeler is in the process of the terminal molt long before the shedding and mating take place and will be a sook even if not mated,you get big sooks from big peelers.  Every now and then I shed a fully mature sook,there may be picture on here somewhere,I think Joecrabs has seen it and maybe CrabbyD,last year I shed 12 or 14 but only 3 or 4 this year,mainly because of deckhands that don't spot them while culling.

So the females own biological clock begins the Terminal Molt process and it has nothing to do with successful mating? Am I understanding this correctly?

[jack1747]

So the females own biological clock begins the Terminal Molt process and it has nothing to do with successful mating? Am I understanding this correctly?

Yes.. You got it..  Them little sallies in my floats without any jimmies still shed out to be Sooks...  When they are ready.  Some of them do not have their terminal molt.  Those would have been BIG sooks when they finally did have the terminal molt.

[jack1747]

The peeler is in the process of the terminal molt long before the shedding and mating take place and will be a sook even if not mated,you get big sooks from big peelers.  Every now and then I shed a fully mature sook,there may be picture on here somewhere,I think Joecrabs has seen it and maybe CrabbyD,last year I shed 12 or 14 but only 3 or 4 this year,mainly because of deckhands that don't spot them while culling.

The pic was not that revealing, but I trust Doc. Joe completely.  He told me he saw it, then he saw it.  I had never even heard of it before then.  It has to be very rare.  The deckhands not seeing the crab signing makes perfect sense to me and explains one of the reasons it is rare.  I know that the crabber I crabbed with this year never even looked at a Sook for signing.  They just got tossed into the Sook basket.

[Crabbyd]

The peeler is in the process of the terminal molt long before the shedding and mating take place and will be a sook even if not mated,you get big sooks from big peelers.  Every now and then I shed a fully mature sook,there may be picture on here somewhere,I think Joecrabs has seen it and maybe CrabbyD,last year I shed 12 or 14 but only 3 or 4 this year,mainly because of deckhands that don't spot them while culling.

or every once in a while an over zealous deckhand wanting to keep everything close as a peeler....... 

[Dreampixels]

The pic was not that revealing, but I trust Doc. Joe completely.  He told me he saw it, then he saw it.  I had never even heard of it before then.  It has to be very rare.  The deckhands not seeing the crab signing makes perfect sense to me and explains one of the reasons it is rare.  I know that the crabber I crabbed with this year never even looked at a Sook for signing.  They just got tossed into the Sook basket.

I would tend to believe a motling Sook or so is very possible given just the numbers of female crabs there are, however at the same time I would tend to believe it to be an Exception an not the Rule.

Thanks for the insight on the Salley to Sook change.

[tugcapt]

The first one my wife pulled up last week you could spot a mile away, it was open, it didn't move when the male dropped it, like it were dead.  The other one had slight red sign, but she was popin at the joints and thick in the fin. I had to get her and hold her while my wife put the big guy in the basket.
I have bought a basket of females before, late in the years from guys off the boat, after steaming them up, you would be suprised to see how many were peelers or close to being peelers after pulling off the shell to pick them.

[Dreampixels]

The first one my wife pulled up last week you could spot a mile away, it was open, it didn't move when the male dropped it, like it were dead.  The other one had slight red sign, but she was popin at the joints and thick in the fin. I had to get her and hold her while my wife put the big guy in the basket.
I have bought a basket of females before, late in the years from guys off the boat, after steaming them up, you would be suprised to see how many were peelers or close to being peelers after pulling off the shell to pick them.

So you are saying it is quite normal for you to find molting sooks? What area are you speaking about, high salinity?

[tugcapt]

Over the years, I have seen plenty of large peelers that included sooks. When they were going to put a limit on females, some state were even going to put a size limit on large female peelers, but didn't because there was no impact on the fishery because there was no market for large sook peelers except to picking houses.  The better soft crabs are smaller.  I'll see if I can find the article about it, I think it was on here a long time ago. It may have been Virgina or down south. 
That's what I don't understand about not keeping females, late in the year.  How many have already did there thing and will most likely not make it to next year anyway. With so many males being caught and the distance in the bay that the females have to travel to mate, they don't get to terminal until the mid to upper bay no matter how mature they are.  < Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Crabbyd]

Over the years, I have seen plenty of large peelers that included sooks. When they were going to put a limit on females, some state were even going to put a size limit on large female peelers, but didn't because there was no impact on the fishery because there was no market for large sook peelers except to picking houses.  The better soft crabs are smaller.  I'll see if I can find the article about it, I think it was on here a long time ago. It may have been Virgina or down south. 
That's what I don't understand about not keeping females, late in the year.  How many have already did there thing and will most likely not make it to next year anyway. With so many males being caught and the distance in the bay that the females have to travel to mate, they don't get to terminal until the mid to upper bay no matter how mature they are.  < Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Tug

When you refer to mid bay, what area does that cover?  I am in the Pax and we almost always get at least a few peelers every day we are out there.  Some days it could be as high as a few dozen peelers.

[tugcapt]

I am just saying in general. I call mid bay bay bridge to pt Lookout, thats just me. I crab around the south river mostly, but I also crabbed west, severn and Magothy over the years.  This year I have seen a ton of females, also this is the most doublers I have ever caught that I can think of.  When I wanted peelers in the past, I would seine them, or dip them, but this year they are coming up with males in the traps.