Blue Crab Industry Design Team Accountability discussion

[Mr. Breeze]

I had a meeting with Kate Culzoni, George Chmael, and my fellow at large representative, Danny Beck last evening.  The intent was to brainstorm ideas which might provide better accountability in the crab fishery.  We came up with a couple of ideas which I will paste below.

As an At Large member of the Design Team, I am tasked with presenting information to as many un affilliated license holders as possible, discussing the information with them, and taking any new thoughts and ideas back to the team.  I'm hoping that some of you will constructively participate in this effort to improve the way our fishery is managed.

If you would like to discuss this and don't want to expose your ideas on the web,  I can be reached by email  indr2@verizon.net    or by phone   410-340-2786

The ideas that Danny and I thought might be acceptable are below

Ideas from At-Large Members
Blue Crab Design Team
 
Goal:  Improve information to DNR that decreases uncertainty in management and regulations and results in better access to crabs.
 
Idea 1:  Intent to Crab – before season starts, all watermen permitted to harvest crabs can declare to DNR that they plan on crabbing.  Those that don’t declare won’t have to participate in reporting and other fishery requirements.  Those that don’t declare will also not be penalized in the future for not declaring.
Intent can also be changed mid-season to provide flexibility to those who weren’t planning on crabbing before the season began.  Due to other reasons (challenges in other fisheries, jobs) they are allowed to declare to crab later on and begin participating and reporting crab harvest based on requirements.
This option can give DNR better information before the season starts, that can be used in crafting regulations (mid-season closures, bushel limits, etc.)
Idea 2: Hail Program – crabbers record (via text or phone call) that they are leaving to go crabbing and then notify the system when they are landing.  Information can also include estimated bushels.
This option gives DNR information on effort in real-time so they can adjust regulations mid-season.  NRP has better information on what is happening on the water and use the information as enforcement tool.
This idea also gives watermen a way for DNR to be more transparent with the information and how they are managing the fishery
Idea 3: Bushel Tags – tags are distributed to watermen who plan on crabbing and should be attached to bushels before they land.  Tag number sequences (1-57) are reporting through hail system and expires tags so they can’t be used again.
This provides another check and balance to management system so that crabs that are sold directly to the public are accounted for another time besides the harvest report and hail system.
Tags also provide opportunities to market crabs through traceability (when crabs are caught, by whom, how, etc.).  This tool is growing in popularity and can give watermen a better price in the market.
 
 

[reds]

I had a meeting with Kate Culzoni, George Chmael, and my fellow at large representative, Danny Beck last evening.  The intent was to brainstorm ideas which might provide better accountability in the crab fishery.  We came up with a couple of ideas which I will paste below.

As an At Large member of the Design Team, I am tasked with presenting information to as many un affilliated license holders as possible, discussing the information with them, and taking any new thoughts and ideas back to the team.  I'm hoping that some of you will constructively participate in this effort to improve the way our fishery is managed.

If you would like to discuss this and don't want to expose your ideas on the web,  I can be reached by email  indr2@verizon.net    or by phone   410-340-2786

The ideas that Danny and I thought might be acceptable are below

Ideas from At-Large Members
Blue Crab Design Team
 
Goal:  Improve information to DNR that decreases uncertainty in management and regulations and results in better access to crabs.
 
Idea 1:  Intent to Crab – before season starts, all watermen permitted to harvest crabs can declare to DNR that they plan on crabbing.  Those that don’t declare won’t have to participate in reporting and other fishery requirements.  Those that don’t declare will also not be penalized in the future for not declaring.
Intent can also be changed mid-season to provide flexibility to those who weren’t planning on crabbing before the season began.  Due to other reasons (challenges in other fisheries, jobs) they are allowed to declare to crab later on and begin participating and reporting crab harvest based on requirements.
This option can give DNR better information before the season starts, that can be used in crafting regulations (mid-season closures, bushel limits, etc.)
Idea 2: Hail Program – crabbers record (via text or phone call) that they are leaving to go crabbing and then notify the system when they are landing.  Information can also include estimated bushels.
This option gives DNR information on effort in real-time so they can adjust regulations mid-season.  NRP has better information on what is happening on the water and use the information as enforcement tool.
This idea also gives watermen a way for DNR to be more transparent with the information and how they are managing the fishery
Idea 3: Bushel Tags – tags are distributed to watermen who plan on crabbing and should be attached to bushels before they land.  Tag number sequences (1-57) are reporting through hail system and expires tags so they can’t be used again.
This provides another check and balance to management system so that crabs that are sold directly to the public are accounted for another time besides the harvest report and hail system.
Tags also provide opportunities to market crabs through traceability (when crabs are caught, by whom, how, etc.).  This tool is growing in popularity and can give watermen a better price in the market.
 
 

Idea 2, to me, is just a big brother approach. Some may not have a problem giving up a freedom, but I do. If the DNR was a company and I worked for them, I could understand this as an accountability, but this is not the case. I see numerous problems with this program.

 DNR cannot keep tract of paper reports, because of under staffing. I'm told that a private company would have to handle the Hail Program. The rec fishing clubs want commercial people to pay for their policing now, they'll have a field day with this one.

[Crabbyd]

Idea 2, to me, is just a big brother approach. Some may not have a problem giving up a freedom, but I do. If the DNR was a company and I worked for them, I could understand this as an accountability, but this is not the case. I see numerous problems with this program.

 DNR cannot keep tract of paper reports, because of under staffing. I'm told that a private company would have to handle the Hail Program. The rec fishing clubs want commercial people to pay for their policing now, they'll have a field day with this one.

Reds, I agree with you on number 2.  I personally don't like #2 or #3.  With #3, the next thing will be catch shares because you will only get so many tags or you will have to eventually have to pay for your tags.

[genecrabman]

Which one of  "goals" did the Watermen offer?
Sounds like they all 3 play into EDF's Game Plan....

[Crabbyd]

Which one of  "goals" did the Watermen offer?
Sounds like they all 3 play into EDF's Game Plan....

exactly

[Mr. Breeze]

I disagree on the comments about # 2.  Nowhere is is said that the ability to crab commercially is a freedom.  It is a priveledge and as such, certain requirements exist in order to work.  What will be proposed will not be additional requirements, instead it will reflect a change in requirements.  The idea is to change the present management system, in order to remove some of the inane regulations that DNR has placed on us.  It's all well and good to not like certain ideas, but since changes are inevitable, it's necessary to come up with solutions to problems which will work for us, and not have some realy inhibitive idea be shoved down our throats by DNR.

As far as DNR not being able to keep track of reports, that is definately the case, and I brought this up as one of my concerns about the hail idea.  DNR can't even set new people up for existing online reporting, much less set up a whole new program.  It would be necessary to have a third party, which I think would actually be a good thing.  There would, however, probably be additional fees involved.  It may be possible to mitigate some of these fees by having DNR pay what they now pay to monitor the harvest.

Reds, I agree with you on number 2.  I personally don't like #2 or #3.  With #3, the next thing will be catch shares because you will only get so many tags or you will have to eventually have to pay for your tags.

I agree that the potential is there for DNR to refuse to issue more tags, thereby limiting the harvest, and I expressed this at the meeting.  Danny told me that no one has ever been denied additional tags, but that it was necessary to plan ahead if you thought you might run out of issued tags.  There are certainly bugs to be worked out of every idea, and the object is to stay open to change and to adopt plans that will work for us, not plans that work for DNR.  Any suggestions are welcome, but it's necessary to come up with suggestions.

[Mr. Breeze]

Which one of  "goals" did the Watermen offer?
Sounds like they all 3 play into EDF's Game Plan....

These are not 'goals' but simly ideas.  We welcome the participation of all license holders, and any ideas that they may have. These were all brought up by the watermen.  And just what is EDF's 'game plan'?

[Crabslayer]

These are not 'goals' but simly ideas.  We welcome the participation of all license holders, and any ideas that they may have. These were all brought up by the watermen.  And just what is EDF's 'game plan'?

Why give into them in the first place.  Just ask Chris how well calling in for YP worked for him.  DNR backed off after he threaten to subpoena every call.

Rich, I'm sorry to say this but you are very gullable if you believe that EDF is our FRIEND.

[Crabbyd]

I disagree on the comments about # 2.  Nowhere is is said that the ability to crab commercially is a freedom.  It is a priveledge and as such, certain requirements exist in order to work.  What will be proposed will not be additional requirements, instead it will reflect a change in requirements.  The idea is to change the present management system, in order to remove some of the inane regulations that DNR has placed on us.  It's all well and good to not like certain ideas, but since changes are inevitable, it's necessary to come up with solutions to problems which will work for us, and not have some realy inhibitive idea be shoved down our throats by DNR.

As far as DNR not being able to keep track of reports, that is definately the case, and I brought this up as one of my concerns about the hail idea.  DNR can't even set new people up for existing online reporting, much less set up a whole new program.  It would be necessary to have a third party, which I think would actually be a good thing.  There would, however, probably be additional fees involved.  It may be possible to mitigate some of these fees by having DNR pay what they now pay to monitor the harvest.

I agree that the potential is there for DNR to refuse to issue more tags, thereby limiting the harvest, and I expressed this at the meeting.  Danny told me that no one has ever been denied additional tags, but that it was necessary to plan ahead if you thought you might run out of issued tags.  There are certainly bugs to be worked out of every idea, and the object is to stay open to change and to adopt plans that will work for us, not plans that work for DNR.  Any suggestions are welcome, but it's necessary to come up with suggestions.

Exactly how do you manage something when you don't have all the data for and the DNR has no intentions of collecting all of the data.  I don't care if the rec's take one bushel or 10,000 bushels, they should be put into the equation and all regulations should be based upon ALL of the data and not just the commercial side.  How do you responsibly enact legislation or regulations with half azz data and tell me they aren't trying to put someone out of business?  Everyone should have to report no different than hunting.

[ChrisS]

You guys should really take this to a private board to discuss. Showing your hands on a public board, may not work in your best interest, jmo.

Btw, 35,000 hunters call into the DNR and check in they're deer every opening day of the Modern firearm season. There's no reason this same system wouldnt work for monitoring bluecrab harvest. Saying the DNR couldnt put this same system in play for the crabs is unexcusable.

again, jmo

[rdbeard]

Chris ,that system don't work either,just ask any taxidermist. as in crabbing the is allot of false reporting going on.

[Mr. Breeze]

Why give into them in the first place.  Just ask Chris how well calling in for YP worked for him.  DNR backed off after he threaten to subpoena every call.

Rich, I'm sorry to say this but you are very gullable if you believe that EDF is our FRIEND.

I don't think that they are our friend, and I don't necessarily think they are our enemies either.  Change in the way the fishery is managed is inevitable.  Are you saying we should just let it happen, and not have a say in what goes on?  I say sieze the opportunity to come up with a program that will work for us.  But if you want to lay down and let them roll over you, be my guest.

So what are your suggestions for improving the fishery?  No change is not an option, cause the writing is on the wall

[Crabslayer]

I don't think that they are our friend, and I don't necessarily think they are our enemies either.  Change in the way the fishery is managed is inevitable.  Are you saying we should just let it happen, and not have a say in what goes on?  I say sieze the opportunity to come up with a program that will work for us.  But if you want to lay down and let them roll over you, be my guest.

So what are your suggestions for improving the fishery?  No change is not an option, cause the writing is on the wall

Why not let the policies and regualtions that they threw on us the past few years work before forcing more down our throats.  They really held to their pledge after 3 yrs, right?

[Mr. Breeze]

Why not let the policies and regualtions that they threw on us the past few years work before forcing more down our throats.  They really held to their pledge after 3 yrs, right?

Change is coming folks.  Any suggestions other than don't participate?  Gibby and his bunch took their ball and went home, thinking that would stop the game, but it continues to be played.  Something will happen, the question is will we have a say or not.

Chris, this is an attempt to get information out and gather ideas.  All meetings are open to the public, and we attempting to be as transparent as possible.

[ChrisS]

I understand, Rich.
thanks

[Crabslayer]

Change is coming folks.  Any suggestions other than don't participate?  Gibby and his bunch took their ball and went home, thinking that would stop the game, but it continues to be played.  Something will happen, the question is will we have a say or not.

Chris, this is an attempt to get information out and gather ideas.  All meetings are open to the public, and we attempting to be as transparent as possible.

Particpate?  How's this for paricipation.  15% of the total licensecees are represented by 14 and the other 85% are represented by 1.  The other at large seat went to a MWA board of director.  Now who do you think will get the larger piece of the pie?

Rich I think your efforts are noble, but this is one time David doesn't have a chance against Goliath.  I have spoken with a lot of waterman many who are MWA members and they are not happy with what is taking place.  You and I attended a Baltimore county meeting and all of it's members told Vince they were DEAD SET against the GPS tracking, yet the very next night in Grasonville Vince was telling the Design Team his members were all for it.

So much for participation.

Go ahead Rich, keep giving concessions until you'll have to find something else to make money.

[Mr. Ray III]

#3, bushel tagging, I am totally against.  How is it determined how many tags we get?  It doesn't seem feasible they would give everyone 10,000 tags.  But take our average catch in past years.....sounds like its putting one in the chamber to take a shot at catch shares, after all, thats basically what it is. 


Until we are required to sell to dealers, I don't think there is a better way to "provide accountability" for crabs, without willingly giving up freedoms.  The paper reports now is the best we got, as shady as they are.

[genecrabman]

#3, bushel tagging, I am totally against.  How is it determined how many tags we get?  It doesn't seem feasible they would give everyone 10,000 tags.  But take our average catch in past years.....sounds like its putting one in the chamber to take a shot at catch shares, after all, thats basically what it is. 


Until we are required to sell to dealers, I don't think there is a better way to "provide accountability" for crabs, without willingly giving up freedoms.  The paper reports now is the best we got, as shady as they are.






 

[Crabslayer]

Change is coming folks.  Any suggestions other than don't participate?  Gibby and his bunch took their ball and went home, thinking that would stop the game, but it continues to be played.  Something will happen, the question is will we have a say or not.

Chris, this is an attempt to get information out and gather ideas.  All meetings are open to the public, and we attempting to be as transparent as possible.

Rich, you wanted this seat badly. You asked people to vote for you so that you could be a voice for them.  Now you have it.  The purpose of the position is to listen to whom you REPRESENT and to PRESENT it to the Design Team. Not the other way around.

http://www.bluecrab.info/forum/index.php/topic,50948.0.html

[Mikie]

I don't support any of the "suggestions" so far. I'll make most of my comments on the Watermen's Forum. As far as saying we have to change everything - WHY? All I have seen so far are contrived and possible problems, not real ones. Kind of like Chicken Little and "The sky is falling".

[Crabslayer]

I don't support any of the "suggestions" so far. I'll make most of my comments on the Watermen's Forum. As far as saying we have to change everything - WHY? All I have seen so far are contrived and possible problems, not real ones. Kind of like Chicken Little and "The sky is falling".

Mikie, that's just it, the suggestions aren't from the majority of the watermen, but from those who are on the team with the facilitation of EDF and from other watermen who were HELPED by EDF from California.  We have a good thing going right now why $#@& with it.  Give the regs we have in place a chance to work.

[Mikie]

BTT, more relevant then similar threads.

[Mr. Breeze]

Why give into them in the first place.  Just ask Chris how well calling in for YP worked for him.  DNR backed off after he threaten to subpoena every call.

Rich, I'm sorry to say this but you are very gullable if you believe that EDF is our FRIEND.

Brian,  I don't look at it as giving in.  I look at it as having the opportunity to change the fishery to our benefit.
I agree that there are bugs to work out of the hail program.  The basics for this method of accountability, should we decide to utilize that tool, would be established by the design team.

What needs to be realized is that the current method of managing crabs is not working very well.  The "knee-jerk" reactions of DNR are harmful to the industry as a whole, affecting both profitability and flexability. The lack of accurate reporting of harvest has resulted in 25% of the crabs available to be harvested to be held in reserve.  25%!!!! 

If you think this number is high, go to this page   http://dnr.maryland.gov/fisheries/news/story.asp?story_id=76
and look at the list of late reporters.  As of Sept 10th there were almost 1000 crabbers that were 10 days late for reporting their august harvest, and close to 100 who were more than 30 days late for the july harverst. How many of those late reporters will be able to accurately report what the caught and how many will just put down any number just to satisfy the reporting requirement? The present system is not working.

So how do you propose to fix it?   Leave it alone is not an acceptable answer, because if we don't do something, DNR will come up with changes that none of us will like

[Mr. Breeze]

keep in mind that this whole thing is a process, and will not be done overnight.  The idea is to go thru the entire fishery, pulling together some general ideas in each area.  This first step has been done.  Now we will revisit all the different areas to try to come up with a proposal for that area, and move on to the next area.  After we've gotten thru the fishery again, and have a complete proposal, we will then revisit a couple more times to make sure that we've tried to think of everything, and every possibility.  After all is considered, thats when we'll work on the recs.
We will also have a provision for revisiting and changing or modifying this program after a specific period of time, say every 3 years, maybe sooner.  Depends on what the team decides.

The team has also committed to operating on a consensus basis so that the David and Goliath analogy that slayer put forth is not valid.  The team is committed to work on items until something is come up with that all members can work with.

Change is inevitable, and most are resistant to it.  My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat.  That's why I wanted to be involved, and that's why I'm trying to get ideas from you all.  I'd really like to see some constructive suggestions come from you all.  If you hold a commercial license, this will affect you, and its your fishery.  This is an opportunity to have a say in how it will be managed in the future

[genecrabman]

rich, I don't have a Dog in this fight, But you guys don't even have a clue of the total numbers of Crabs Caught...How can you know what kind of steps to save anything until you get the real numbers? fight for a Trip Ticket program to get real numbers from each and every crabber....Then you what your fighting for....