Blue Crab Industry Design Team Accountability discussion

[reds]

rich, I don't have a Dog in this fight, But you guys don't even have a clue of the total numbers of Crabs Caught...How can you know what kind of steps to save anything until you get the real numbers? fight for a Trip Ticket program to get real numbers from each and every crabber....Then you what your fighting for....

Gene

We have a great unknown here, that you don't have. Rec catch. Until that is known, all other programs or changes in regs are useless.

[antman]

Gene

We have a great unknown here, that you don't have. Rec catch. Until that is known, all other programs or changes in regs are useless.

.         We need a baseline....without this we will not be able to accurately manage the crab fishery

[Big Liar]

If you think this number is high, go to this page   http://dnr.maryland.gov/fisheries/news/story.asp?story_id=76
and look at the list of late reporters.  As of Sept 10th there were almost 1000 crabbers that were 10 days late for reporting their august harvest, and close to 100 who were more than 30 days late for the july harverst. How many of those late reporters will be able to accurately report what the caught and how many will just put down any number just to satisfy the reporting requirement? The present system is not working.

You can't go by the 10 day late page.  I've mailed my report in on the 3rd of the month before to find my name on the list.  I called up there and have been told that it came in before the 10th but not in time for them to get it recorded.  My name was on the 30 late list for July, but only because I did a temp transfer of my license in order to get a TFL temporarily transferred in to my name.  Mine went to the nephew of the person who I got the TFL from.  He just got a workboat and  wanted to start working on the water.  I told him that he had to turn in the reports.  When he did not turn the reports in, I went to him and took my license back from him and turn the reports in myself.  Crab reporting is not the same as rockfish reporting.  The DNR is not going to shut down the fishery in the middle of the month.

[reds]

You can't go by the 10 day late page.  I've mailed my report in on the 3rd of the month before to find my name on the list.  I called up there and have been told that it came in before the 10th but not in time for them to get it recorded.  My name was on the 30 late list for July, but only because I did a temp transfer of my license in order to get a TFL temporarily transferred in to my name.  Mine went to the nephew of the person who I got the TFL from.  He just got a workboat and  wanted to start working on the water.  I told him that he had to turn in the reports.  When he did not turn the reports in, I went to him and took my license back from him and turn the reports in myself.  Crab reporting is not the same as rockfish reporting.  The DNR is not going to shut down the fishery in the middle of the month.

Some on here are aware that I send in three commercial reports a month.
I send all three in the same envelope, return receipt requested.

I got a notice one month this summer that my crabbing report had not been sent in. Checked with them, they had received the other two.

The reason the present system is not working is because DNR does not have the personnel to take care of it. Any changes, short of reducing the number of licenses, will not be an improvement.
Dnr knows this and reduction in licenses is their ultimate goal.

[lnbcrabs]

license reduction is what dnr wants, much easier to manage smaller numbers. everybody wants to complain and say this sucks, thats fine. why don't you all discuss how many waterman should hold licenses, cause thats what dnr will do. And I promise if the design team fails, dnr will come up with that number.  The buy back program is worthless, and some members are in favor.  Just keep in mind when dnr buys back a license it is no longer usable for future purchase from the state, gone forever. EVERYONE should try to be helpfull and in sitefull rather than bitchin!!!!  I do strongly agree that all in depth com. discussion should be done on another site with only com. access. Rich just use this for info. purposes, not in depth discussions. jmo

[jack1747]

license reduction is what dnr wants, much easier to manage smaller numbers. everybody wants to complain and say this sucks, thats fine. why don't you all discuss how many waterman should hold licenses, cause thats what dnr will do. And I promise if the design team fails, dnr will come up with that number.  The buy back program is worthless, and some members are in favor.  Just keep in mind when dnr buys back a license it is no longer usable for future purchase from the state, gone forever. EVERYONE should try to be helpfull and in sitefull rather than bitchin!!!!  I do strongly agree that all in depth com. discussion should be done on another site with only com. access. Rich just use this for info. purposes, not in depth discussions. jmo

Huh what? Why? 

Correct me please but isn't MD DNR just the enforcement arm of the government?  Like in VA.  Here the VRMC can manage the rules but they can not change them.  Like the Winter Hard Crab Dredging.  The VMRC can close the dredging from season to season but they can not eliminate it.  Only the legislature can do that, change laws.  Meaning the general public will ultimately decide the out come.

If you keep these discussions between yourselves, in your not so secret forum, then people like us will make decisions based of emotion not understanding the Commercial watermans side.

[Mr. Breeze]

I have to agree with Jack.  While the decisions made by the design team will be made by the commercial representatives,  ultimately, the management plan that is developed will have to be subjected to public scrutiny and must pass the test, otherwise it is destined to failure.
Our meetings are open to the public and our discussions there are not kept hush-hush  I don't think our discussions outside of the meetings should be hidden either.  This process needs to be as transparent as possible. 
I copied the following from my original post, if you'd like to discuss anything without public scrutiny

If you would like to discuss this and don't want to expose your ideas on the web,  I can be reached by email  indr2@verizon.net    or by phone   410-340-2786

The focus of the next meeting is accountability,  looking for ways the commercial crabbers can be more accountable.  The present method of reporting harvest is inept, and there is no way to determine the actual effort in advance of the sporatic and inaccurate reports that are received.  Bushel tags, Hail program, and declaration of intent have been suggested.  Looking for pluses, minuses to these suggestions, or additional ideas that might improve our accountability

[ChrisS]

Legislature has given DNR the authority to enact any law they feel necessary, at any time to protect the resource. They do not have to wait to be in session in order to do so.

[reds]

Legislature has given DNR the authority to enact any law they feel necessary, at any time to protect the resource. They do not have to wait to be in session in order to do so.

Certain regulations can be enacted by DNR after a public hearing process and ok by a legislative committee.

LAWS can only be enacted and passed by the legislature and OKed or vetoed by the Governor

[genecrabman]

Certain regulations can be enacted by DNR after a public hearing process and ok by a legislative committee.

LAWS can only be enacted and passed by the legislature and OKed or vetoed by the Governor

When they can put tracking devises on your boats...........They can pretty much do what they want........


But you better [dang] sure not trust the DNR..

[Mikie]

license reduction is what dnr wants, much easier to manage smaller numbers. everybody wants to complain and say this sucks, thats fine. why don't you all discuss how many waterman should hold licenses, cause thats what dnr will do. And I promise if the design team fails, dnr will come up with that number.  The buy back program is worthless, and some members are in favor.  Just keep in mind when dnr buys back a license it is no longer usable for future purchase from the state, gone forever. EVERYONE should try to be helpfull and in sitefull rather than bitchin!!!!  I do strongly agree that all in depth com. discussion should be done on another site with only com. access. Rich just use this for info. purposes, not in depth discussions. jmo

Personally, I believe the number of licenses should be capped at the current target numbers. The only available licenses should be through purchase/transfer from an existing licensee OR if someone allows a license to return to the DNR or the DNR buys a license back - it should be reissued to the next eligible applicant on a waiting list.

[Big Liar]

Rich, 
       First can the DNR let us know what the more timely reporting is going to be used for?  How quickly do they need it, and with this improved recording system - what will this enable them to do?  That would help in determining was is needed.  If someone ask you to build a flying machine - you don't want to build a Space Shuttle if they only intended to fly from Baltimore to OC.  My point is, do they truly need it daily. 

       Like I said, as things are today - I don't see the DNR stopping all commercial crabbers on June 10th (right before fathers day) because too many crabs were reported for the month.  Of course that would mean crabs would be $300 a bushel off the boat for the 4th of July. 

      Let the DNR tell us what they truly want.  Not some vague statement.(substainable fishery)  They know what they want, but I'm guessing that it's so bad that even they don't want to say it.  There are already less commercial crabbers now than ever.  It's my personal opinion that with the increased harvests by recreational crabbers, the DNR feels they need to transfer some of the commercial allocations over to the recreational side.  Only my opinion.  Not based on any facts. 

       I will tell you "thanks" for sitting at that poker table called the design team.  Groups of people stating only half truths and being force to negociate away what you currently have.  I don't have any desire to be in politics.  Glad you are able to sit at the table.         

[flounderpounder]

You guys should really take this to a private board to discuss. Showing your hands on a public board, may not work in your best interest, jmo.

Btw, 35,000 hunters call into the DNR and check in they're deer every opening day of the Modern firearm season. There's no reason this same system wouldnt work for monitoring bluecrab harvest. Saying the DNR couldnt put this same system in play for the crabs is unexcusable.

again, jmo

except for all the people that call and report 2 phony does kills so they can get their 2nd buck tag....or dont call at all 

[genecrabman]

except for all the people that call and report 2 phony does kills so they can get their 2nd buck tag....or dont call at all 

Thats right ...........And "EVERYONE" knows how "ALL" Waterman are Poacher anyways..
DNR has laws in place for recs and commercials......they need to enforce em more...Or just put tracking devises on everything...

[Mr. Breeze]

Rich, 
       First can the DNR let us know what the more timely reporting is going to be used for?  How quickly do they need it, and with this improved recording system - what will this enable them to do?  That would help in determining was is needed.  If someone ask you to build a flying machine - you don't want to build a Space Shuttle if they only intended to fly from Baltimore to OC.  My point is, do they truly need it daily. 

       Like I said, as things are today - I don't see the DNR stopping all commercial crabbers on June 10th (right before fathers day) because too many crabs were reported for the month.  Of course that would mean crabs would be $300 a bushel off the boat for the 4th of July. 

      Let the DNR tell us what they truly want.  Not some vague statement.(substainable fishery)  They know what they want, but I'm guessing that it's so bad that even they don't want to say it.  There are already less commercial crabbers now than ever.  It's my personal opinion that with the increased harvests by recreational crabbers, the DNR feels they need to transfer some of the commercial allocations over to the recreational side.  Only my opinion.  Not based on any facts. 

       I will tell you "thanks" for sitting at that poker table called the design team.  Groups of people stating only half truths and being force to negociate away what you currently have.  I don't have any desire to be in politics.  Glad you are able to sit at the table.         

This week, DNR was asked to extend the female season for one week due to the disruption of harvest caused by hurricane irene and t.s. lee.  The departments response, which came in an email today, portrays the importance
of timely and accurate reports.  After reading it below, maybe someone can post some more ideas to improve accountability.


Tawes State Office Building – 580 Taylor Avenue – Annapolis, Maryland 21401
410-260-8DNR or toll free in Maryland 877-620-8DNR – www.dnr.maryland.gov – TTY Users Call via the Maryland Relay
October 21, 2011
Dear Mr. Gibby Dean, Mr. Larry Simns, Senators Pipkin and Colburn and Delegates Jacobs and Eckardt,
The Department is responding to your request to extend the 2011 commercial crabbing season for female crabs from November 10th to at least November 17th. Specifically, your request was made in response your reports that Hurricane Irene and Tropical Storm Lee had a negative impact on our commercial crabbers. And, that because of these impacts, you believe that an extension to the season would not jeopardize our ability to stay within the sustainable harvest target.

We certainly understand the basis for the request but unfortunately, we will not be able to grant this extension. This is not possible because of continued problems with the commercial harvest reporting system that does not provide accurate or timely reporting information. As a result, we are unable to assess the season’s harvest until early 2012 when an independent analysis of harvest is complete. We are very pleased that the Industry-led Blue Crab Design Team has recognized this problem, and is working with us to address it.

Once an accurate and timely harvest reporting system is implemented, there can be greater flexibility in seasons.
DNR’s primary objective in managing the blue crab fishery is to avoid over-harvest, but also to ensure that the fisheries can achieve the maximum safe use of the resource. We do this by developing annual bushel limits and closures which, based on each year’s crab population, should ensure harvest at or near the target of 46%. Since the new management regime was enacted in 2008, annual fishery removals (2008-2010) have averaged 43%, slightly below the target level. Because annual harvests have been below the target level, DNR acted to increase harvest opportunity in 2011 despite a 30% decline in the crab population. Based on the advice of the Blue Crab Industry Advisory Committee, DNR increased catch limits beginning September 1st by 12%. Ideally, these increased bushel limits are increasing harvest opportunity despite the lost days due to weather.

DNR fully understands the economic impacts of lost days and fishery closures. Clearly, greater flexibility to adjust seasons would be a benefit to the industry as an aggregate. However, we cannot provide this flexibility without more accurate and timely harvest reports. To date we have reported harvest data only through August 31st. September harvest reports were not due to the Department until October 10, and will not be considered late until November 30. We have no idea how the increased catch limits have impacted harvest in the interim, and we cannot determine how the 2011 harvest thus far, is tracking relative to our management target.

To add to the complication, commercial crab harvest reports have proven unreliable since 2008 as latent watermen are reporting fictional harvest in order to maintain catch history on our books. As a result, we use independent survey data to estimate each year’s harvest as a means to cross check and validate harvest reports. Surveys are not complete until the end of the crabbing season, and analysis is not completed until January.

We look forward to working with the industry to obtain accurate and timely harvest reports as this will provide increased management flexibility for in-season adjustments. One area where we may be able to immediately help is a marketing strategy(ies) to increase the value of this year’s remaining crab fishery. I plan to discuss this idea with our seafood marketing team, and be interested in your suggestions. If you have any questions, please contact my Deputy Director, Lynn Fegley at 410- 260-8285 or via email at lfegley@dnr.state.md.us. Or, contact me at toconnell@dnr.state.md.us or via phone at 410-260-8281.
Sincerely,
Thomas J. O’Connell

[madcrabber1113]

At this point I just pray. 

[genecrabman]

I'm in TOTAL SHOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!WHO WOULD HAVE EVER THUNK IT??

People all around the Country struggling to pay their bills, and the Watermen ask for an extra week, to help with their bills............and get turned down.......Keep putting your Faith in these crooked "BAD PEOPLE".......
Sounds like a good reason to OCCUPY ANNOPOLIS............

[Mikie]

Well Rich, since the required monthly reports are totally unreliable and the DNR isn't paying any attention to them, WHY are we wasting our time sending them in - and WHY is the DNR wasting our fees and tax dollars compiling figures from them? Since the only figures they trust are from their Winter dredge surveys - eliminate the monthly harvest reports and go by the surveys only. ARE YOU ACTUALLY KEEPING TRACK OF THESE SUGGESTIONS AND TAKING THEM TO THE MEETINGS? That's why we elected you, but I'm starting to have doubts.

[reds]

I'm in TOTAL SHOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!WHO WOULD HAVE EVER THUNK IT??

People all around the Country struggling to pay their bills, and the Watermen ask for an extra week, to help with their bills............and get turned down.......Keep putting your Faith in these crooked "BAD PEOPLE".......
Sounds like a good reason to OCCUPY ANNOPOLIS............

More BS from the can't count DNR.
I must have missed the part where DNR said they didn't set up the present reporting system and are stuck with it.

[genecrabman]

Well Rich, since the required monthly reports are totally unreliable and the DNR isn't paying any attention to them, WHY are we wasting our time sending them in - and WHY is the DNR wasting our fees and tax dollars compiling figures from them? Since the only figures they trust are from their Winter dredge surveys - eliminate the monthly harvest reports and go by the surveys only. ARE YOU ACTUALLY KEEPING TRACK OF THESE SUGGESTIONS AND TAKING THEM TO THE MEETINGS? That's why we elected you, but I'm starting to have doubts.

I wouldn't Blame Rich or any of the watermen on the Panel.......Like I said earlier, they are going to be the FALL GUYS when this stuff is over.......They'll get more than their share of the blame from DNR and EDF........
If DNR wouldn't extend the season for 6 days............I'm sure they'll be willing to pass laws in the Watermens favor...

[madcrabber1113]

I wouldn't Blame Rich or any of the watermen on the Panel.......Like I said earlier, they are going to be the FALL GUYS when this stuff is over.......They'll get more than their share of the blame from DNR and EDF........
If DNR wouldn't extend the season for 6 days............I'm sure they'll be willing to pass laws in the Watermens favor...

               Untill run off from roads,farms,houses ,etc is dealt with this will just flounder untill a complete ban.
 

[genecrabman]

               Untill run off from roads,farms,houses ,etc is dealt with this will just flounder untill a complete ban.
 

ALL POLITICS............DNR has a Control fetish, and EDF will try to get em all excited and worked up too........If every crabber including the Recs loaded his/her boats everyday, DNR would still want to place restrictions on everything...And say the END IS NEAR.......

[madcrabber1113]

Reminds me of the Rockfishes plight way back in the 80's.Look at that fishery now.I cant find fresh local Rock for less than $10 per pound.That is fillets by the way.

[SlickCam]

If they claim that we're lying... tell em to prove it and prosecute somebody.  Until then, they should believe us.

[Crabbyd]

Sounds like "your balls in a vise" repsonse to me.  Either give us what we want our we will continue to squeeze your balls in the vise!  They are using these unreasonable excuses to make the weak cave in and then they will conquer all of us.  Wake up and JUST SAY NO!!!!!!!