Blue Crab Industry Design Team Accountability discussion

[Crabslayer]

Rich, I'm going to put this out in the OPEN.  I was told by a very active crabber that we both know, that you told him you are not opposed to "Catch Shares."  Any truth to that?

[reds]

Sounds like "your balls in a vise" repsonse to me.  Either give us what we want our we will continue to squeeze your balls in the vise!  They are using these unreasonable excuses to make the weak cave in and then they will conquer all of us.  Wake up and JUST SAY NO!!!!!!!

Thursday at the TFAC meeting, DNR announced that they are going to pursue a buy back program on the LCC licenses again.
They didn't say when.

[Crabslayer]

Thursday at the TFAC meeting, DNR announced that they are going to pursue a buy back program on the LCC licenses again.
They didn't say when.

Reds, correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it Griffin under the Glendenning Admin. that created the different class of licenses?

[reds]

Reds, correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it Griffin under the Glendenning Admin. that created the different class of licenses?

Different classes were before Glendening.

James Coulter (1971–1983) and Torrey C. Brown (1983–1995)..........  Glendening was elected in 1995.

[ChrisS]

Thursday at the TFAC meeting, DNR announced that they are going to pursue a buy back program on the LCC licenses again.
They didn't say when.

Reds,
I attended one of the "Mandatory commercial fisheries" classes for new licenses holders this spring, and DNR was handing out new LCC's like they were candy. I dont think LCC's are in any danger, if so, Im unsure why they were giving out new ones if that were the case.

[Big Liar]

Because msgs. from the right hand have to go through the brain before they reach the left hand and the brain is dyslexic.  Right hand said take away and left hand heard hand out. 

[reds]

Reds,
I attended one of the "Mandatory commercial fisheries" classes for new licenses holders this spring, and DNR was handing out new LCC's like they were candy. I dont think LCC's are in any danger, if so, Im unsure why they were giving out new ones if that were the case.

I attend most TFAC meetings. What DNR announced is what I wrote above.

I know there are less LCC's then are allocated by the general assembly.

[ChrisS]

One thing may have nothing to do with the other. I believe what your saying regarding buying them back, but they are also issuing new ones.

[coggi]

Im totally against catch shares or any bastard cousin resembling it . I really hope that you didn't politic for a seat saying you wereagainst this and have a change of heart

[Mr. Breeze]

Rich, I'm going to put this out in the OPEN.  I was told by a very active crabber that we both know, that you told him you are not opposed to "Catch Shares."  Any truth to that?

LOL,    No, Brian,  I have never said that I was for catch shares.  In fact, I've said from the start that catch shares would not work in the crab fishery.  The design team is not even looking at catch shares anymore, and made a statement to that effect.    See Item 6 under top decision section here:    http://watermenway.com/meetings/meeting-7/

Since you are "putting this out in the OPEN", who told you that?  first name or boat name will do, since we both know them.  Or is this something that you just threw out there to stir the pot?

[Mr. Breeze]

Im totally against catch shares or any bastard cousin resembling it . I really hope that you didn't politic for a seat saying you wereagainst this and have a change of heart

No change of heart here.  Catch shares will not work here, and the team has said as much in the meetings.
Click this link:    http://watermenway.com/meetings/meeting-7/

Quote from linked page.

The concept of catch shares has been studied and discussed at length, and the design team has made the determination that catch shares will not work in our fishery and we are moving on to other blue crab management alternatives. The blue crab fishery in Maryland is unique on the Chesapeake Bay and other management alternatives are being explored by the Blue Crab Industry Design Team.

[coggi]

Can u elaborate on these alternatives?

[Mr. Ray III]

I remember Rich telling me, one on one, in a discussion we have had, many, many times, he was not for catch shares. 

[Mr. Breeze]

Can u elaborate on these alternatives?

keep in mind that this whole thing is a process, and will not be done overnight.  The idea is to go thru the entire fishery, pulling together some general ideas in each area.  This first step has been done.  Now we will revisit all the different areas to try to come up with a proposal for that area, and move on to the next area.  After we've gotten thru the fishery again, and have a complete proposal, we will then revisit a couple more times to make sure that we've tried to think of everything, and every possibility.  After all is considered, thats when we'll work on the recs.
We will also have a provision for revisiting and changing or modifying this program after a specific period of time, say every 3 years, maybe sooner.  Depends on what the team decides.

The team has also committed to operating on a concensus basis so that the David and Goliath analogy that slayer put forth is not valid.  The team is committed to work on items until something is come up with that all members can work with.

Change is inevitable, and most are resistant to it.  My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat.

At the Nov. meeting, we will discuss accountability, and during previous discussions on this subject, many ideas were brought up.  Some (alot) of them were thrown out because the members of the team thought them too draconian, or impractical.  Like the tracking devises.  There is no talk of tracking devices being required anymore.

Intent to crab, some sort of hail program, and bushel tags were the least offensive ( and seemed to be the most acceptable) of the ideas that were previously discussed, and look as though they will provide information that is needed on a real time basis for managers to assess and react to changes in the fishery on a more timely basis.  I intend to take any and all rational suggestions to the team for their consideration, and the team will try to, by consensus, come up with a plan for improving accountability.

Here is where many people seem to be confused by the process.  After we come up with a plan for improved accountability, it will not be enacted immediately.  The accountability concept will then be set aside and discussion at the Dec. meeting will likely be on another area of the fishery, and so forth until we go thru the entire fishery and have a complete management plan.  ( This is not to say that something like the intent idea might not be tried for 2012 as a trial program.  Or that the Department might not institute some of these ideas on their own.  DNR has already taken some of the design team ideas and enacted them.  The hail program will be in effect for the 2012 hook and line rockfishery, and the Dec 2012 gill net fishery)

Once a complete fishery management plan is developed by the design team, we will go back thru it item by item, to make sure that, when looked at as a whole, it is a cohesive, comprehensive, practical, and functional plan.  This review of the plan may take several months, keeping in mind that the team only meets for 3 hours once a month.  After the team is satisfied with the plan, it will be presented to the legislature and to dnr for consideration.

Keep in mind that the accountability concept (or any other part of the plan) will not be set in stone until the overall plan is complete and ready for presentation.  This is an attempt to completely revamp the management process, not to change it bit by bit.

The Blue Crab industy Design Team is a watermen led group tasked with long term changes.  For short term changes look to the Blue Crab Industry Advisory Committee and the Tidal Fish Advisory Commission, both of which are DNR led groups.

[Mr. Breeze]

I remember Rich telling me, one on one, in a discussion we have had, many, many times, he was not for catch shares. 

Thanks, Ray.  I guess some feel the need to sling mud even here.  There are many more that will say the same.

[coggi]

Worst part of the job. Its like being a union rep in a contract negotiations. Even if you get everything the group wants you'll be a no good sob to a third of em before its over. Either way best of luck and I will wait in the future for you to respond to any allegations before I jump on here with my intenet pitchfork and torch.

[reds]

I remember Rich telling me, one on one, in a discussion we have had, many, many times, he was not for catch shares. 

I talk with Rich quite a few times a month by phone, as well as at all the meetings we attend. I have never heard him say he is for Catch Shares.

[Crabbyd]

Isn't bushel tags the first step to catch shares?    Who is going to regualte how many tags anyone or any class will get?  I say NO! to bushel tags.

First step should be DNR clean up their own house and get their book keeping straight.  Walk into the DNR ofice and look in any one of those cubicles and see how they keep their own records.  It is a mess down there.  No wonder they loose so many catch reports.  The DNR could be the star for the show hoarders.

[Crabslayer]

A couple of things:

First I'm not slinging mud.  I am bringing the issues to the forefront so that they may be discussed.

Rich, the person who told me is a husband and wife team.  Said you asked for his and his wife's vote.  He mentioned that you were not opposed to catch shares.  Also you and I have talked many times at length and granted you mentioned that it was not feasible in our industry, you also said that you were open to it and wanted to hear more on the subject.  That is why you wouldn't sign the petition.

"Change is inevitable, and most are resistant to it.  My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."

If most are resistant to it and it is supposed to be "Industry Driven,"  then listen to the industry and not the other way around where you have several telling the masses what to do.

"Intent to crab, some sort of hail program, and bushel tags were the least offensive ( and seemed to be the most acceptable) of the ideas that were previously discussed,"

And from the consensus from here and others I've spoke with, they are all against it.

Alternative Fisheries Management is just another name for "Catch Shares."

To me Kate or someone is doing an effective job on coaching you and the team and you took it hook, line and sinker.  JMHO.

[genecrabman]

Kate is a pretty girl.......

[Mr. Ray III]

Isn't bushel tags the first step to catch shares?    Who is going to regualte how many tags anyone or any class will get?  I say NO! to bushel tags.

First step should be DNR clean up their own house and get their book keeping straight.  Walk into the DNR ofice and look in any one of those cubicles and see how they keep their own records.  It is a mess down there.  No wonder they loose so many catch reports.  The DNR could be the star for the show hoarders.

I agree.  Before any changes happen with the fishery, the people who manage it need to get straight. 

[madcrabber1113]

Reds,
I attended one of the "Mandatory commercial fisheries" classes for new licenses holders this spring, and DNR was handing out new LCC's like they were candy. I dont think LCC's are in any danger, if so, Im unsure why they were giving out new ones if that were the case.

     I had no idea they were issuing new ones.A buddie of mine paid a small fortune for his from a com guy he knows,plus the 42 ft. boat,made up 300 plus pots and has many,many years catching what hes been catching to even come close to making a proffit.I go meet him sometimes where his pots are located to see how he is doing,buy crabs whatever and it is nothing short of a miracle that there are any com. crabbers left.It costs a small fortune to get into a business that based on what he and some other com. crabbers have told me and I have witnessed.It sounds great to actually get paid to crab but unless you are dealing direct to the public it is like spinning tires in the snow.Thank god some are stubborn enough not to quit.

[Mr. Ray III]

When you think about it, crabbing is a cheap business to get into, compared to most businesses. 

[rdbeard]

DNR is not going to clean anything you want them to before this managment plan gets done so some crabbers better get involed with atleast some sugestions pretaining to whats being considered. i don't know enough to form an opinion about the things being sugested all i know is i want to crab WHEN i can - partime and not be limited to a # of bu. based on what i do now so when i retire i can still crab to make ends meet without being told i can't crab because i've reached my bu limit half way through the season. i would'nt be opposed to a bu limit that would be daily and be based on lic type and based on my highest catches which are not very high.

[reds]

     I had no idea they were issuing new ones.A buddie of mine paid a small fortune for his from a com guy he knows,plus the 42 ft. boat,made up 300 plus pots and has many,many years catching what hes been catching to even come close to making a proffit.I go meet him sometimes where his pots are located to see how he is doing,buy crabs whatever and it is nothing short of a miracle that there are any com. crabbers left.It costs a small fortune to get into a business that based on what he and some other com. crabbers have told me and I have witnessed.It sounds great to actually get paid to crab but unless you are dealing direct to the public it is like spinning tires in the snow.Thank god some are stubborn enough not to quit.

The only licenses that are being issued in the apprenticeship program are when a license has been turned in or someone has let a license expire. The licenses that have been bought by the DNR are not being reissued.

There is a numbers cap on all types of licenses and the licenses issued are well below that cap.