Blue Crab Industry Design Team Accountability discussion

[ChrisS]

Why they are giving them out, or under what circumstances is of no importance. The point is, they are giving them back out.....and I see alot of "the sky is falling" for LCC holders on here.....and thought it was nice to let some of em know, they ARE giving them back out.....so, providing they're behaving themselves and maintaining the proper paperwork, their licenses are not in danger....at this time.

[rdbeard]

Chris, i don't agree that the lcc's are in no danger at this time, we really have no idea at this time. I am worried about my lic. being in danger due to my partime status- amount of income relateed to working the water because i feel at this time it's not DNR that i have to woory about.

[reds]

BTW.
 DNR also announced at the TFAC meeting, that 80 LCC licenses that had been frozen and were told that if the target population of crabs was up for 3 years in a row, that their licenses would be reinstated, will be starting 2012.

[ChrisS]

BTW.
 DNR also announced at the TFAC meeting, that 80 LCC licenses that had been frozen and were told that if the target population of crabs was up for 3 years in a row, that their licenses would be reinstated, will be starting 2012.

That sounds like good news...I guess

[Crabslayer]

BTW.
 DNR also announced at the TFAC meeting, that 80 LCC licenses that had been frozen and were told that if the target population of crabs was up for 3 years in a row, that their licenses would be reinstated, will be starting 2012.

Then why another buy back?

[madcrabber1113]

The only licenses that are being issued in the apprenticeship program are when a license has been turned in or someone has let a license expire. The licenses that have been bought by the DNR are not being reissued.

There is a numbers cap on all types of licenses and the licenses issued are well below that cap.

Oh,thank you.

[Mr. Breeze]

 
Rich, the person who told me is a husband and wife team.  Said you asked for his and his wife's vote.  He mentioned that you were not opposed to catch shares.  Also you and I have talked many times at length and granted you mentioned that it was not feasible in our industry, you also said that you were open to it and wanted to hear more on the subject.  That is why you wouldn't sign the petition.

This is two seperate issues.  
1) First, the husband/wife team.  Yes, I asked them to write my name in, if they didn't already have someone else to vote for.  It occurred on the water, without alot of time to chat.  If they interpreted from our brief chat that I was in favor of catch shares, then I did a lousy job of explaining the issue in the 2-3 minutes that I had before we both went back to work.  Sorry.  Catch Shares are off the table.  They are not being discussed.
  Early on in the discussion, like a year ago, I said that I wanted to learn more on the issue because I wanted to be able to make an informed decision on the subject.  That's why I went on one of those field trips, to learn more.

2) Signing your petition was like drawing a line in the sand. Ask Ronnie how far that got the mullet fishermen in Florida.  They all wish they had done things differently, they may have still had a fishery.



"Change is inevitable, and most are resistant to it.  My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."

If most are resistant to it and it is supposed to be "Industry Driven,"  then listen to the industry and not the other way around where you have several telling the masses what to do.


When the design team was first created, it came about because DNR told Larry and Gibby that if they didn't create a group to look at this,  DNR would put catch shares in place.  Enough said. From you comments in this thread, I suppose your response would be to do nothing.  I stand by my original statement.  "My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."

"Intent to crab, some sort of hail program, and bushel tags were the least offensive ( and seemed to be the most acceptable) of the ideas that were previously discussed,"

And from the consensus from here and others I've spoke with, they are all against it.


And from the feedback that I've gotten, both here, in pm's and on the phone, there is no consensus.  It seems to be split, about 50/50.   Contrary to what you think, most appear to realize that something must be done to change the way the crab fishery is managed, they're just not sure what should happen.  

Alternative Fisheries Management is just another name for "Catch Shares."

LOL.  This statement is outrageously incorrect.  Again, catch shares are off the table.  We are not looking at them

To me Kate or someone is doing an effective job on coaching you and the team and you took it hook, line and sinker.  JMHO

If you had continued to attend the meetings, you would not say this.  To insinuate that I am being led by EDF or DNR is ludicrous.  Anyone who has been to the meetings knows from my comments before I got a seat, and my paticipation at the one meeting at the table that your statement is untrue.  Ask Tom and Mike.  The next meeting is Nov 1st.  You might want to bring your closed mind to it before you accuse me of towing the line.


The bottom line is this.  The design team is for real.  The team will work to create a new fisheries management plan for crabs. Whether you like it or not, Brian, its happening.  The snowball is starting down the hill.  If you don't get out of the way, you are likely to get rolled over.  If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.  We, the crabbers, have been given an opportunity to design the plan that will manage the fishery.  If we don't do it, DNR will do it for us, and we will have no say at all.  Again, "My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."  Participate, or don't; either way, change is coming, and it will affect you.

[Mr. Breeze]

Isn't bushel tags the first step to catch shares?    Who is going to regualte how many tags anyone or any class will get?  I say NO! to bushel tags.

First step should be DNR clean up their own house and get their book keeping straight.  Walk into the DNR ofice and look in any one of those cubicles and see how they keep their own records.  It is a mess down there.  No wonder they loose so many catch reports.  The DNR could be the star for the show hoarders.

D, from the start of the bushel tag discussion, I had some reservations, and continue to have them.  There are some positive aspects to this idea.  There are some very real negatives also.  Several of the biggest negatives is who will issue the tags, who will determine how many tags are issued to each license holder, and how will the tags be accounted for.  On the positive side,  They could provide an accurate account of the number of crabs harvested. They will also meet DNR's stipulation that any plan that we come up with will include full accurate reporting of the entire commercial harvest.  The negatives need to be worked out in the design of this portion of the program.

who will issue the tags  This would have to be a third party.  I don't think that DNR can be trusted not to put limits on the number of tags issued.

who will determine how many tags are issued to each license holder  I can only agree to bushel tags if there is no limit to the number of tags issued to each license holder, or if the number of tags available to each license holder is equivalent to the reported harvest of the largest license holder in each class.  For example, say the largest reported harvest in the LCC lisence class is 5,000 bushels. Then each LCC holder would be entitled to that many tags.  Just an idea, but keep in mind.  Tags cost money, and odds are, the license holder would likely be resposible for contracting with the supplier for them.

how will the tags be accounted for. The question becomes how would the tags be prevented from being used over and over, especially with private sales.  Possibly by developing a computer program that retires the tag number when it is entered as used, with a date attached to the entry.  Maybe in conjunction with the hail program.  Also require the tag to remain on the basket all the way to the end user.


As far as the DNRs record keeping goes, the idea here is to clean this area up also, as part of a complete package.  Possibly with 3rd party record keeping?  Electronic reporting?

I don't think bushel tags is completely unworkable, but there are details to be worked out satisfactorily before we can accept them.  Rest assured, tags will be discussed at the Nov 1 meeting.  Try to come if you can.

[ChrisS]

Rich, the person who told me is a husband and wife team.  Said you asked for his and his wife's vote.  He mentioned that you were not opposed to catch shares.  Also you and I have talked many times at length and granted you mentioned that it was not feasible in our industry, you also said that you were open to it and wanted to hear more on the subject.  That is why you wouldn't sign the petition.

This is two seperate issues.  
1) First, the husband/wife team.  Yes, I asked them to write my name in, if they didn't already have someone else to vote for.  It occurred on the water, without alot of time to chat.  If they interpreted from our brief chat that I was in favor of catch shares, then I did a lousy job of explaining the issue in the 2-3 minutes that I had before we both went back to work.  Sorry.  Catch Shares are off the table.  They are not being discussed.
  Early on in the discussion, like a year ago, I said that I wanted to learn more on the issue because I wanted to be able to make an informed decision on the subject.  That's why I went on one of those field trips, to learn more.

2) Signing your petition was like drawing a line in the sand. Ask Ronnie how far that got the mullet fishermen in Florida.  They all wish they had done things differently, they may have still had a fishery.



"Change is inevitable, and most are resistant to it.  My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."

If most are resistant to it and it is supposed to be "Industry Driven,"  then listen to the industry and not the other way around where you have several telling the masses what to do.


When the design team was first created, it came about because DNR told Larry and Gibby that if they didn't create a group to look at this,  DNR would put catch shares in place.  Enough said. From you comments in this thread, I suppose your response would be to do nothing.  I stand by my original statement.  "My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."

"Intent to crab, some sort of hail program, and bushel tags were the least offensive ( and seemed to be the most acceptable) of the ideas that were previously discussed,"

And from the consensus from here and others I've spoke with, they are all against it.


And from the feedback that I've gotten, both here, in pm's and on the phone, there is no consensus.  It seems to be split, about 50/50.   Contrary to what you think, most appear to realize that something must be done to change the way the crab fishery is managed, they're just not sure what should happen.  

Alternative Fisheries Management is just another name for "Catch Shares."

LOL.  This statement is outrageously incorrect.  Again, catch shares are off the table.  We are not looking at them

To me Kate or someone is doing an effective job on coaching you and the team and you took it hook, line and sinker.  JMHO

If you had continued to attend the meetings, you would not say this.  To insinuate that I am being led by EDF or DNR is ludicrous.  Anyone who has been to the meetings knows from my comments before I got a seat, and my paticipation at the one meeting at the table that your statement is untrue.  Ask Tom and Mike.  The next meeting is Nov 1st.  You might want to bring your closed mind to it before you accuse me of towing the line.


The bottom line is this.  The design team is for real.  The team will work to create a new fisheries management plan for crabs. Whether you like it or not, Brian, its happening.  The snowball is starting down the hill.  If you don't get out of the way, you are likely to get rolled over.  If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.  We, the crabbers, have been given an opportunity to design the plan that will manage the fishery.  If we don't do it, DNR will do it for us, and we will have no say at all.  Again, "My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."  Participate, or don't; either way, change is coming, and it will affect you.

well said

[Mr. Breeze]

BTW.
 DNR also announced at the TFAC meeting, that 80 LCC licenses that had been frozen and were told that if the target population of crabs was up for 3 years in a row, that their licenses would be reinstated, will be starting 2012.

Then why another buy back?

They say to give the frozen licenses another chance to get some money for their license

[Summertop]

Rich, the person who told me is a husband and wife team.  Said you asked for his and his wife's vote.  He mentioned that you were not opposed to catch shares.  Also you and I have talked many times at length and granted you mentioned that it was not feasible in our industry, you also said that you were open to it and wanted to hear more on the subject.  That is why you wouldn't sign the petition.

This is two seperate issues.  
1) First, the husband/wife team.  Yes, I asked them to write my name in, if they didn't already have someone else to vote for.  It occurred on the water, without alot of time to chat.  If they interpreted from our brief chat that I was in favor of catch shares, then I did a lousy job of explaining the issue in the 2-3 minutes that I had before we both went back to work.  Sorry.  Catch Shares are off the table.  They are not being discussed.
  Early on in the discussion, like a year ago, I said that I wanted to learn more on the issue because I wanted to be able to make an informed decision on the subject.  That's why I went on one of those field trips, to learn more.

2) Signing your petition was like drawing a line in the sand. Ask Ronnie how far that got the mullet fishermen in Florida.  They all wish they had done things differently, they may have still had a fishery.



"Change is inevitable, and most are resistant to it.  My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."

If most are resistant to it and it is supposed to be "Industry Driven,"  then listen to the industry and not the other way around where you have several telling the masses what to do.


When the design team was first created, it came about because DNR told Larry and Gibby that if they didn't create a group to look at this,  DNR would put catch shares in place.  Enough said. From you comments in this thread, I suppose your response would be to do nothing.  I stand by my original statement.  "My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."

"Intent to crab, some sort of hail program, and bushel tags were the least offensive ( and seemed to be the most acceptable) of the ideas that were previously discussed,"

And from the consensus from here and others I've spoke with, they are all against it.


And from the feedback that I've gotten, both here, in pm's and on the phone, there is no consensus.  It seems to be split, about 50/50.   Contrary to what you think, most appear to realize that something must be done to change the way the crab fishery is managed, they're just not sure what should happen.  

Alternative Fisheries Management is just another name for "Catch Shares."

LOL.  This statement is outrageously incorrect.  Again, catch shares are off the table.  We are not looking at them

To me Kate or someone is doing an effective job on coaching you and the team and you took it hook, line and sinker.  JMHO

If you had continued to attend the meetings, you would not say this.  To insinuate that I am being led by EDF or DNR is ludicrous.  Anyone who has been to the meetings knows from my comments before I got a seat, and my paticipation at the one meeting at the table that your statement is untrue.  Ask Tom and Mike.  The next meeting is Nov 1st.  You might want to bring your closed mind to it before you accuse me of towing the line.


The bottom line is this.  The design team is for real.  The team will work to create a new fisheries management plan for crabs. Whether you like it or not, Brian, its happening.  The snowball is starting down the hill.  If you don't get out of the way, you are likely to get rolled over.  If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.  We, the crabbers, have been given an opportunity to design the plan that will manage the fishery.  If we don't do it, DNR will do it for us, and we will have no say at all.  Again, "My feeling is that it's better to try to guide the change rather than just have it forced down our throat."  Participate, or don't; either way, change is coming, and it will affect you.

If they interpreted from our brief chat that I was in favor of catch shares, then I did a lousy job of explaining the issue in the 2-3 minutes that I had before we both went back to work.  Sorry.  Catch Shares are off the table.  They are not being discussed.


Are you in favor of catch shares, when they  are discussed?


YES

NO

[C-Hawk18]

  Electronic reporting?

This is how I report now. Apparently I was one of the lucky ones who got in when they started it as now no one can get in. Can you find out why doesn't DNR expand this option?

[reds]

This is how I report now. Apparently I was one of the lucky ones who got in when they started it as now no one can get in. Can you find out why doesn't DNR expand this option?

I can answer that question. I have been waiting 6 months to get on electronic reporting.

They do not have the personnel to put anybody new on the E/R. And And And (not a mistake) they do not know when they will have.

[Crabslayer]

I can answer that question. I have been waiting 6 months to get on electronic reporting.

They do not have the personnel to put anybody new on the E/R. And And And (not a mistake) they do not know when they will have.

And how will they handle 3,000 + guys calling in every morning and again at the end of the day?

[Crabslayer]

Rich, you need to re-read the petition.  Nothing in it about drwaing a line in the sand.  It says for DNR and the watermen to work hand in hand without the assistance of EDF.

[jack1747]

I can answer that question. I have been waiting 6 months to get on electronic reporting.

They do not have the personnel to put anybody new on the E/R. And And And (not a mistake) they do not know when they will have.

HUH WHAT? I would think they could create a web page to collect the info in less then a hour. 

[C-Hawk18]

HUH WHAT? I would think they could create a web page to collect the info in less then a hour. 

It's not even THAT hard. The web based database is already there. All that needs to be done is create a user ID and password.

[Mikie]

HUH WHAT? I would think they could create a web page to collect the info in less then a hour. 

The DNR is using a generic program that other States along the coast are using (ACCSP). The guy who was handling the startup evidently left or was moved and they don't have anyone to take over. I tried the system and didn't care for it - too generic and burdensome from my point of view for the reporting I need to do.

[coggi]

I got my license this year and I was setup ffor erepots on safis.

[Mr. Breeze]

If they interpreted from our brief chat that I was in favor of catch shares, then I did a lousy job of explaining the issue in the 2-3 minutes that I had before we both went back to work.  Sorry.  Catch Shares are off the table.  They are not being discussed.


Are you in favor of catch shares, when they  are discussed?


YES

NO

John,  No, I am not in favor of catch shares in the blue crab fishery.  I said as much in reply 59 and 60 of this thread

[Mr. Breeze]

And how will they handle 3,000 + guys calling in every morning and again at the end of the day?

They won't handle it.  They are not capable.  This is part of the details that will have to be worked out by the design team.  Possibly an independent 3rd party

[Captain C]

DNR has to find out what the recreational catch total is.

Until then any "management" is USELESS.

[Mr. Breeze]

They won't handle it.  They are not capable.  This is part of the details that will have to be worked out by the design team.  Possibly an independent 3rd party

And, on any given day, I think you would be hard pressed to find 3000 commercial crabbers on the water.

[madcrabber1113]

DNR has to find out what the recreational catch total is.

Until then any "management" is USELESS.

I found this    http://ian.umces.edu/pdfs/ecocheck_newsletter_286.pdf

[flounderpounder]

Im totally against catch shares or any bastard cousin resembling it . I really hope that you didn't politic for a seat saying you wereagainst this and have a change of heart

happens to everyone thats elected ....dosent it?