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Author Topic: Watermen ponder suit over crabbing plans  (Read 11858 times)
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ChrisS
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« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2008, 08:39:17 PM »

I understand what your saying, but with that aside, would you rather see a farm or a development? It's not really that hard of a question.

....do you farm that land?
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madcrabber1113
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« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2008, 08:41:56 PM »

Yes the land is farmed.I answered your question.Read back.
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ChrisS
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« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2008, 08:43:11 PM »

Do YOU farm that land.......Are you a farmer?
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« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2008, 08:46:47 PM »

I let the guy who used to own it farm it for free.
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ChrisS
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« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2008, 08:49:49 PM »

....so you allow this nasty stuff to be spread on your fields, into your ground water.....and possibly into streams to be washed into the bay, considering it's toxicity?
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madcrabber1113
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« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2008, 08:52:24 PM »

Yes that is how I know about it.As far as what is worse for the bay the farms are far worse than houses.Google it you will see what I mean.
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ChrisS
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« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2008, 08:54:27 PM »

....than you should be held accountable for the condition of the bay?
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« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2008, 09:00:12 PM »

Yeah it's my fault.I tried to get him to go organic but he isn't capable for many reasons.I am considering stopping the farming but it will devestate his family.What do you do with the Bobcat?
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ChrisS
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« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2008, 09:15:51 PM »

...I tear down developments to turn it back into farm land.

So you bought a farm from a farmer, assuming you paid fair market price for the land, let the farmer farm it for free.....and allow the use of toxic pesticides, herbicides and fertilzer to knowingly be washed into the bay destroying it.......and still find the time to post conservation minded threads twice a day, every day?

It doesn't sound like the farmer is the one getting the short end of the stick here.

Now, if farms are worse for the bay than development.....why on earth are you not developing your farm into townhouses? You could give this poor farmer a sweet check for his family and still walk away virtually a millionaire.
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« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2008, 09:21:32 PM »

...I tear down developments to turn it back into farm land.

So you bought a farm from a farmer, assuming you paid fair market price for the land, let the farmer farm it for free.....and allow the use of toxic pesticides, herbicides and fertilzer to knowingly be washed into the bay destroying it.......and still find the time to post conservation minded threads twice a day, every day?

It doesn't sound like the farmer is the one getting the short end of the stick here.

Now, if farms are worse for the bay than development.....why on earth are you not developing your farm into townhouses? You could give this poor farmer a sweet check for his family and still walk away virtually a millionaire.
What do you do with the Bobcat?I dont post conservation minded threads twice a day every day.What do you do to preserve anything?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 09:24:00 PM by madcrabber1113 » Logged

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ChrisS
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« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2008, 09:26:44 PM »

I told you already.

http://www.bluecrab.info/forum/index.php/board,4.0.html

....must be a different "madcrabber1113", I'm sorry.

I like this one especially, totally debunks everything you said above and you posted it. Do you even read what you post?
http://www.bluecrab.info/forum/index.php/topic,23977.0.html
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Crabbyd
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« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2008, 08:02:23 AM »

Yeah it's my fault.I tried to get him to go organic but he isn't capable for many reasons.I am considering stopping the farming but it will devestate his family.What do you do with the Bobcat?

You don't want to "devastate" his family by forcing him to use environmentally friendly pesticides/herbicides or stop farming "my land" but it's ok to cut the commercial guy and he can find another way of living?  Huh  Didn't you just post about how these items that you are allowing to be used on your property, are killing the bay?  That sure sounds two sided.  Isn't a commercial fisherman just another name for a water farmer?  He is harvesting isn't he?
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"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, a crab in one hand, a beer in the other, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride!"
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« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2008, 08:27:01 AM »


Now, if farms are worse for the bay than development.....why on earth are you not developing your farm into townhouses? You could give this poor farmer a sweet check for his family and still walk away virtually a millionaire.

Well one once the eastern shore looks the western shore the bay should start getting healthier, what with all those dirty farms paved over and all. Roll Eyes
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Tom Powers
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« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2008, 08:32:49 AM »

Crabbyd,

Aquaculture is the same as farming, setting up leased bottom for oysters by setting out shell, etc. is like farming. . .

Harvesting wild stocks is more of a hunter gatherer concept, like trapping, or harvesting trees off of national forests. . .

The farmer buys the seed, fertilizer, etc. tills the land plants the seed, keeps it weeded, etc. before he can harvest it.  He has an investment in the land that he uses and a long term desire to maintain it for later years. 

The person who harvests wild stocks for commercial purposes does just that harvests for profit .   Not to say it is wrong, just how it is.

While many are concerned about, maintaining stocks for future years, etc. there are SOME who are OK with the concept of harvest one species down to a low abundance, then move on to another species while the first (hopefully) recovers.  The latter, to me is not a sustainable fishing practice.


Tom
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 08:37:15 AM by Tom Powers » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2008, 08:33:22 AM »

Isn't a commercial fisherman just another name for a water farmer?  He is harvesting isn't he?


Harvesting is only a portion of "farming"...
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Crabbyd
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« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2008, 09:00:27 AM »

Tom

The real point I was trying to make was he didn't want to devastate the farmer but it's ok to devastate the commercial fisherman and his/her family.  Harvesting was a minor point to the whole post. 

As for your point of:

"While many are concerned about, maintaining stocks for future years, etc. there are SOME who are OK with the concept of harvest one species down to a low abundance, then move on to another species while the first (hopefully) recovers.  The latter, to me is not a sustainable fishing practice."

how come it has become only a commercial reduction?  If you listen and read all these posts, recs don't keep females?  Why isn't there a mandatory lic and reporting system for all? 

Is there a problem with the crab fishery?  Yes!!!

Does something need to be done?  Yes!!!

Should it only be fixed from one side?  No!!!

How can anyone have even the vaguest count of the harvest if only one side reports?  After a true count from all sides is done, then a "real" solution can begin.
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"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, a crab in one hand, a beer in the other, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride!"
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« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2008, 10:16:36 AM »

The MAJOR part of the problem with this fishery is over capitalization, plain and simple.

 From 1994 until 1999 the number of permitted commercial pots in VA went from 520,000 to 834,000.  Most of that was expansion into the peeler fishery.  In hind sight the correct thing to have done back then was to make it a one pot in one pot out type of deal.  They didn't because the advice was that folks would only be using the peeler licenses during the peak run, then they would shift back to hard crabbing.  The peeler fishery has turned into a 5 to 6 month fishery.  About the same time is when MD went nuts with their LCC licenses.

In 2000 they cut the peeler pots from 400 to 300 per licenses and the number of permitted pots went down to about 720,000. . . . There is just to much gear in the water.

Couple that with the SECONDARY problem of water quality and the third or fourth level of concern which is predation and you have a crab stock that is at pretty much an all time low and not recovering.

In VA the recreational fishery is like 3%.  It is not the cause of the stock problems. 

VA took a big hit with a month of closure; an end of the dredge fishery; a 30% reduction in peeler pots;  a 15% reduction in hard crab pots; higher minimum sizes for for peeler crabs, closure of the 1000 square mile sanctuary for an extra month, and a suspension of the 5-pot recreational license.

I still do not have a good understanding of the harvest levels of the different sectors in MD.  I just hope that MDs bushel limits on female crabs, etc. are effective, because VA watermen are making one heck of a sacrifice. 

VA did not choose to do bu limits because it was felt that a crabber would work through his pots one day until he got his limit.  Then he would stop for the day.  The next day he would start where he left of working the pots that have been in the water for two days.  That sure sounds like a good way to insure that your daily catch of female crabs continues to be your average for the previous year, which is exactly what MD implemented in the fall.
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Crabbyd
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« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2008, 10:37:36 AM »

The MAJOR part of the problem with this fishery is over capitalization, plain and simple.

 From 1994 until 1999 the number of permitted commercial pots in VA went from 520,000 to 834,000.  Most of that was expansion into the peeler fishery.  In hind sight the correct thing to have done back then was to make it a one pot in one pot out type of deal.  They didn't because the advice was that folks would only be using the peeler licenses during the peak run, then they would shift back to hard crabbing.  The peeler fishery has turned into a 5 to 6 month fishery.  About the same time is when MD went nuts with their LCC licenses.

In 2000 they cut the peeler pots from 400 to 300 per licenses and the number of permitted pots went down to about 720,000. . . . There is just to much gear in the water.

Couple that with the SECONDARY problem of water quality and the third or fourth level of concern which is predation and you have a crab stock that is at pretty much an all time low and not recovering.

In VA the recreational fishery is like 3%.  It is not the cause of the stock problems. 

VA took a big hit with a month of closure; an end of the dredge fishery; a 30% reduction in peeler pots;  a 15% reduction in hard crab pots; higher minimum sizes for for peeler crabs, closure of the 1000 square mile sanctuary for an extra month, and a suspension of the 5-pot recreational license.

I still do not have a good understanding of the harvest levels of the different sectors in MD.  I just hope that MDs bushel limits on female crabs, etc. are effective, because VA watermen are making one heck of a sacrifice. 

VA did not choose to do bu limits because it was felt that a crabber would work through his pots one day until he got his limit.  Then he would stop for the day.  The next day he would start where he left of working the pots that have been in the water for two days.  That sure sounds like a good way to insure that your daily catch of female crabs continues to be your average for the previous year, which is exactly what MD implemented in the fall.


Tom

I don't know anything about Va and their rec vs comm counts but I can say in MD, there is NO way of saying how many crabs the rec's harvest or how many rec's are even out there.  This should be a priority to the states so they can begin to get a handle on the biomass vs harvest counts.
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"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, a crab in one hand, a beer in the other, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming -- WOW--What a Ride!"
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« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2008, 02:40:15 PM »

I told you already.

http://www.bluecrab.info/forum/index.php/board,4.0.html

....must be a different "madcrabber1113", I'm sorry.

I like this one especially, totally debunks everything you said above and you posted it. Do you even read what you post?
http://www.bluecrab.info/forum/index.php/topic,23977.0.html
That isn't every day,it was a few days that I was sick and had too much time on my hands and I was merely sharing some info I read.I don't always agree with everything I post from articles.I put it out there to generate some others thoughts on issues.You must do some sort of construction related business with that Bobcat.I was merely trying to show how most of us are hypocrites at one time or another myself included.
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madcrabber1113
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« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2008, 02:46:37 PM »

You don't want to "devastate" his family by forcing him to use environmentally friendly pesticides/herbicides or stop farming "my land" but it's ok to cut the commercial guy and he can find another way of living?  Huh  Didn't you just post about how these items that you are allowing to be used on your property, are killing the bay?  That sure sounds two sided.  Isn't a commercial fisherman just another name for a water farmer?  He is harvesting isn't he?
He has to compete is his problem and I at some point am going to stop the farming.The only problem is my farm is only 140 acres it is but a spec of the total problem.There are millions of acres of farms in the watershed.He will have to adapt just as anyone does who's job goes away.
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