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Author Topic: State may require license for all who go crabbing  (Read 22594 times)
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Dreampixels
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« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2008, 11:48:11 PM »

Crabbyd

    How many commercial fellas are out there crabbing? Do you think the number of bushel taken by the recs would significantly increase the lively hood of the commercial crabber if it were divided evenly between them?

    I am not asking as a wise ace, just and honest answer in your opinion. I have little idea how many crabs the recs take in total. I do know most of my crabbing is done long after the demand for the high priced bushel is over.

    I see crabs for $40 a bushel on road side stands on the way home. I tell people I work with crabbing is like any other sport, you need to enjoy the water, the out doors and so on as I could have surely bought my catch this year cheaper then catching them, but it is something I like to do, I like to spend my time like that - me the water and nature.

    I can side with the commercial guy and his costs, but I do not think eliminating the recs would help matters. I think because it is a way of life the resource would be fished into extinction in just the same matter as it is now and the time difference between recs and no recs would be null. I do not think one waterman would be significantly better off with out recs or even tough limits on recs.

    JMHO

   With all due respect sir.........................
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2008, 01:27:18 AM »

  Who took the biggest hit this past year?   Huh

Comms, which surprised the he!! out of me after all the posturing that occurred prior to the announcement of the amended regs.  I thought recs would take a more substantial hit than what they did.
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2008, 08:24:22 AM »

Crabbyd

    How many commercial fellas are out there crabbing? Do you think the number of bushel taken by the recs would significantly increase the lively hood of the commercial crabber if it were divided evenly between them?

    I am not asking as a wise ace, just and honest answer in your opinion. I have little idea how many crabs the recs take in total. I do know most of my crabbing is done long after the demand for the high priced bushel is over.

    I see crabs for $40 a bushel on road side stands on the way home. I tell people I work with crabbing is like any other sport, you need to enjoy the water, the out doors and so on as I could have surely bought my catch this year cheaper then catching them, but it is something I like to do, I like to spend my time like that - me the water and nature.

    I can side with the commercial guy and his costs, but I do not think eliminating the recs would help matters. I think because it is a way of life the resource would be fished into extinction in just the same matter as it is now and the time difference between recs and no recs would be null. I do not think one waterman would be significantly better off with out recs or even tough limits on recs.

    JMHO

   With all due respect sir.........................
Thats not what he said but since you asked ...YES it would,like most of our fisherys watermen have been fishing them for 150 to over 200 years with no problems until good reliable outboards and no maintinance fiberglass boats came along and massive amounts of people hit the water in the last 30 years.
 What CrabbyD  was saying is the watermen took all the hits for the fishery being on a down turn,the recreational crabber didn't have to give up anything.We have seen it in Fla with every fishery inshore and offshore and in some cases commercial fishing has been cut out alltogether and the fishery still wont recover and continues to get worse.
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« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2008, 10:56:39 AM »

Crabbyd

    How many commercial fellas are out there crabbing? Do you think the number of bushel taken by the recs would significantly increase the lively hood of the commercial crabber if it were divided evenly between them?

    I am not asking as a wise ace, just and honest answer in your opinion. I have little idea how many crabs the recs take in total. I do know most of my crabbing is done long after the demand for the high priced bushel is over.

    I see crabs for $40 a bushel on road side stands on the way home. I tell people I work with crabbing is like any other sport, you need to enjoy the water, the out doors and so on as I could have surely bought my catch this year cheaper then catching them, but it is something I like to do, I like to spend my time like that - me the water and nature.

    I can side with the commercial guy and his costs, but I do not think eliminating the recs would help matters. I think because it is a way of life the resource would be fished into extinction in just the same matter as it is now and the time difference between recs and no recs would be null. I do not think one waterman would be significantly better off with out recs or even tough limits on recs.

    JMHO

   With all due respect sir.........................

Dreampixels

My post was not in the direction of your reply but I will answer your questions with a few more questions.

How many bushels of crabs do you think were harvested from the wye, gunpowder, and the elk rivers this past year by the average recreational crabber?  The reasons I mention these river specifically is because of the obvious crowds that these rivers seen this past year.  If I remember correctly, there were quite a few posts complaining about the lack of parking for Mariner park and the amount of crowds and complaints of crabbers setting up on top of others.  You can go to the wye river on any given day during the summer and spend 20 minutes walking from the ramp to the last truck/car and trailer parked over a mile from the ramp.  Imagine realistically how many bushels are removed from these rivers on any given day.  Do you think a species in a body of water with ever depleting habitat and the poor water quality can sustain in this environment? 

Do you think there is any correlation in the amount of pressure versus the quality (not including just size) and quantity of the average catch coming from the wye this past season let alone with the quality of the water this year at the wye?

I am not saying or proposing the elimination of the rec's to benefit the comm.  I do believe there is an issue with the numbers of crabs in the last couple of years.  I also believe it runs in cycles and is dependent upon the cycles of weather among other circumstances.  Last year with the drought, the crabs were not in the "usual" locations and the numbers were down significantly but I don't think they were gone.  In fact I know they weren't gone.  We did very well last year but we were so far up the rivers compared to previous years.  This past season, the elk and the gunpowder had banner years compared to some years in the past.  Did this have something to do with the previous year's drought.  I believe so.  Last fall there wasn't a fall run of the sooks and this year everyone up north complained about  how many huge sooks were being caught up north.  A coincidence.....don't think so.  The females never made the fall run in the numbers of past years to the mouth of the bay since the northern part of the bay had a high salinity count.  With the crabs being up so far north in the rivers and the bay, a lot of the "big" commercial fisherman with the bigger boats or the commercial potters didn't harvest as  much last year hence the commercial landings were down and looked like it was a bad year for the crabs. 

I guess the bottom line is how do you know how many are truly harvested if only one side of the players are reporting the catch?  We may all be surprised if both sides report their catches.  Even if everyone doesn't report accurate counts, it's got to be better then no reports at all.
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« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2008, 11:14:44 AM »

Thats not what he said but since you asked ...YES it would,like most of our fisherys watermen have been fishing them for 150 to over 200 years with no problems until good reliable outboards and no maintinance fiberglass boats came along and massive amounts of people hit the water in the last 30 years.
 What CrabbyD  was saying is the watermen took all the hits for the fishery being on a down turn,the recreational crabber didn't have to give up anything.We have seen it in Fla with every fishery inshore and offshore and in some cases commercial fishing has been cut out alltogether and the fishery still wont recover and continues to get worse.


I was implying the governing bodies of the industry might well look at the tally taken by recs are so limited applying regulations to them would not have insignificant results. I was being objective and not defensive. Sorry sometimes I may not be too clear in my writings.

In terms of economics, with all those boats in the hands of pleasure seekers I would guess to turn their interest away would be devastating to the local economies.

I think the proposals show an effort into finding out those recs numbers. However unless you place Crab Cop on every boat or check station at every launch you are once again dealing with the integrity of the person no matter how you police it.

When you state you yes it would I take this to be IYHO unless you have some numbers to support it.

DNR numbers 8% of the total catch over 3 or 4 years was by recs. If 92% of you water was leaking out of your water tank via one hole and  8% percent via another hole which one would you attempt fixing first for the fastest results.

I think they need the best numbers they can get and then allow the cards to fall where they may.

This is not common only to the fishing trade either, most all skilled trades has animosity between the professional and the armature.
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I wish to die like my father did, in his "sleep" - unlike the screaming passengers aboard the plane he was piloting.

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« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2008, 11:17:02 AM »

One thing is for sure... the number of commercial crabbers is steadily decreasing, while the number of recreational crabbers is increasing, and increasing quickly.

Look on any commercial fishing website, magazine, bulletin board.... guys are selling boats, licenses, gear, everything.  Meanwhile, everyone and their grandmother wants 30 traps, 1200' of trotline, and a 16' carolina skiff. Roll Eyes

So, if only the commercial catch is reported, and commerical crabbers are decreasing in numbers, OF COURSE the catch numbers will look "bad" because not as many people reported their catch!

Until everyone reports their catch, its all speculation, and thats no better than what we know now... the the rec catch is somewhere between 1 and 99% of the total catch Roll Eyes Roll Eyes  Point is, nobody knows.
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« Reply #46 on: November 15, 2008, 11:18:35 AM »

Crabbyd

I hope the above posting shows that we are in agreement...........I am not arguing....trying to find facts........both must live in coexistence.
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I wish to die like my father did, in his "sleep" - unlike the screaming passengers aboard the plane he was piloting.

There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew.    Marshall McLuhan
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Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh
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« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2008, 02:46:57 PM »

The local economys do suffer some when recreational fishing is restricted but only to a point,crabbing will be different as it is not much fun to catch and release crabs or just crab for one trophy crab but a lot of recreational hook n line fishery's have closed seasons and severe limits and people still go even when they can't keep any or only one,we have the same problem N MD has with lot of Ga. boats fishing here in N Fla,all we get out of most of them is the cost of the license,when they leave Ga. they have everything they need for the day on the water.
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« Reply #48 on: November 15, 2008, 03:08:48 PM »

I myself would never want to take a mans living away from him if I knew for sure I was doing so.

Remember progress retired the ditch digger with the steam shovel.

Housing replaced the small farmer - more progress.

In the end it will work out, but for sure it will not be the same as it is now for anyone.

Life has more facets then anything anyone has ever seen.

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I wish to die like my father did, in his "sleep" - unlike the screaming passengers aboard the plane he was piloting.

There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew.    Marshall McLuhan
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Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh
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« Reply #49 on: November 15, 2008, 05:06:47 PM »

I myself would never want to take a mans living away from him if I knew for sure I was doing so.

Remember progress retired the ditch digger with the steam shovel.

Housing replaced the small farmer - more progress.

In the end it will work out, but for sure it will not be the same as it is now for anyone.

Life has more facets then anything anyone has ever seen.


Unfortunately there are many who because they are blessed enough to be able to catch their own would put us out of business and deny those who can't catch their own from being able to eat fresh local seafood.
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« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2008, 05:54:40 PM »

Unfortunately there are many who because they are blessed enough to be able to catch their own would put us out of business and deny those who can't catch their own from being able to eat fresh local seafood.

OK, so does that infer that if my being able to catch my own puts you out of business and thus renders those unable or unwilling to catch their own unable to eat fresh local seafood, that I should stop catching my own and buy yours to keep you in business and allow those that are unwilling or unable to catch their own the ablility to eat fresh local seafood?

Trying to make the individual feel guilty for doing something they love, enjoy,and possibly need to do, because you can't make a living or a good living if they do strikes me as "off".
And I think I can relate on some level.
I was a very good high-end furniture maker in Houston during the 80's. In 1990 we moved to Oklahoma City, when people would come to me for furninture the were shocked at my prices, which were not outrageous by any stretch of the imagination. I made wages, not even profit. At first I couldn't understand how I was losing so much business and where it was going. So I started checking out who was getting the jobs I was losing. Over and over again I found that I was competing with hobbyist, retired airforce personel, and the like. When I would engage these folks to find out how they were making highend one of a kind furniture so cheaply, I found over and over again that most of them were not in it for the money, the hobbyist were doing it because they loved it, the retirees for something to do. Many, many of jobs that I would have made an honest living doing went to guys who just wanted to pay for their equipment and materials with maybe a little beer money left over.
I was tempted to be angry with them, I couldn't compete with somebody that didn't care if they made any money on a job. They didn't need the work and I had a family to feed.
But after giving it no little thought, I came to the conclusion that they had just as much right to do the work as I did even if they were basically giving away their work,  even if that meant their giving away their work meant I had no paying work. Not much sense in my mind to try and make these guys feel guilty for "stealing my livelyhood with their hobbys and distractions".
I found something else to do to earn a living.
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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2008, 06:24:49 PM »

OK, so does that infer that if my being able to catch my own puts you out of business and thus renders those unable or unwilling to catch their own unable to eat fresh local seafood, that I should stop catching my own and buy yours to keep you in business and allow those that are unwilling or unable to catch their own the ablility to eat fresh local seafood?

Trying to make the individual feel guilty for doing something they love, enjoy,and possibly need to do, because you can't make a living or a good living if they do strikes me as "off".

Has nothing to do with whats going on or what I said,commercial fishermen are getting ALL the blame for fishery's being in trouble and taking the brunt of the regulations which do put people out of work so others can continue to play and have fun.New regulations have to be spread fairly across the board to all user groups,most of the time it takes 5 to 7 years for the recreational side to catch up on restrictions and that happens only after the waterman has been cut back severly and the recreational fishery expands enough to negate the gains made and you are back to where you started at with a fishery still in trouble.
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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2008, 08:04:05 AM »

Crabbyd

    How many commercial fellas are out there crabbing? Do you think the number of bushel taken by the recs would significantly increase the lively hood of the commercial crabber if it were divided evenly between them?

    I am not asking as a wise ace, just and honest answer in your opinion. I have little idea how many crabs the recs take in total. I do know most of my crabbing is done long after the demand for the high priced bushel is over.

    I see crabs for $40 a bushel on road side stands on the way home. I tell people I work with crabbing is like any other sport, you need to enjoy the water, the out doors and so on as I could have surely bought my catch this year cheaper then catching them, but it is something I like to do, I like to spend my time like that - me the water and nature.

    I can side with the commercial guy and his costs, but I do not think eliminating the recs would help matters. I think because it is a way of life the resource would be fished into extinction in just the same matter as it is now and the time difference between recs and no recs would be null. I do not think one waterman would be significantly better off with out recs or even tough limits on recs.

    JMHO

   With all due respect sir.........................





$40 a bushel...  for what ?  females?   never saw that sign Sad      for the rec's ------ take 30 members of this board and find out what the catch  was for the year.. do the math and lets see what numbers we get...
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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2008, 12:59:06 PM »

Is it possible what we are seeing in the Crabbing Industry a Natural Evolution?

Agreed the Natural Resource can not support the demand and fishing pressure.

Read about the auto industry in the beginning as it were being perfected and look at it today with Ford, GM, and Chrysler.   AMC got eaten. In early times the city I live in had more then one auto maker. Fact is many Wagon Manufactures were also Auto Makers.

Speaking of Wagon Makers, were did they go……………..?

When I was a child and lived in the city every block had a small family run store on the corner. Many times there were 2 stores only 2 blocks away from each other. Then the BIG SUPER MARKETS moved in – slowly the small stores diminished one by one like Christmas tree light burning out until all those little corner stores set dark and empty.

There are hundreds of manufactures of home made bread mixes in this country, from the big conglomerates to little Annie that markets her favorite recipe. However the big bread makers are not yelling foul.

The company I worked for 36 years that was eaten many times while I work there, at our hay day we were 2500 wage strong, today less then 300.

Every company I have ever worked for was always in competition with another, sharing the market, trying way to capture more of the market.

If only commercial crabbing were allowed, how long would it take before the commercial crabber over populated himself and the Strong would Devour the weak until balanced were reached.

I can have empathy but I assume no blame, nor shall I accept blame.

When a welder loses his job because they say there are too many welders. The system says retrain him, or find something else to do. His whole lively hood was his ability to weld – unless he makes himself a more efficient welder, or better then the others he is looking at establishing roots into some other livelihood.

Plumbers, Electricians, Welders, Carpenters, Masons, Store Owners, Salesman’s, Farmers, Car Lot Owners, every job in this country has faced the same dilemmas at one time or the other – a process of Natural Evolution preformed before our very eyes.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 01:08:42 PM by Dreampixels » Logged

I wish to die like my father did, in his "sleep" - unlike the screaming passengers aboard the plane he was piloting.

There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew.    Marshall McLuhan
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Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh
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« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2008, 05:43:11 PM »

Is it possible what we are seeing in the Crabbing Industry a Natural Evolution?

Agreed the Natural Resource can not support the demand and fishing pressure.

Read about the auto industry in the beginning as it were being perfected and look at it today with Ford, GM, and Chrysler.   AMC got eaten. In early times the city I live in had more then one auto maker. Fact is many Wagon Manufactures were also Auto Makers.

Speaking of Wagon Makers, were did they go……………..?

When I was a child and lived in the city every block had a small family run store on the corner. Many times there were 2 stores only 2 blocks away from each other. Then the BIG SUPER MARKETS moved in – slowly the small stores diminished one by one like Christmas tree light burning out until all those little corner stores set dark and empty.

There are hundreds of manufactures of home made bread mixes in this country, from the big conglomerates to little Annie that markets her favorite recipe. However the big bread makers are not yelling foul.

The company I worked for 36 years that was eaten many times while I work there, at our hay day we were 2500 wage strong, today less then 300.

Every company I have ever worked for was always in competition with another, sharing the market, trying way to capture more of the market.

If only commercial crabbing were allowed, how long would it take before the commercial crabber over populated himself and the Strong would Devour the weak until balanced were reached.

I can have empathy but I assume no blame, nor shall I accept blame.

When a welder loses his job because they say there are too many welders. The system says retrain him, or find something else to do. His whole lively hood was his ability to weld – unless he makes himself a more efficient welder, or better then the others he is looking at establishing roots into some other livelihood.

Plumbers, Electricians, Welders, Carpenters, Masons, Store Owners, Salesman’s, Farmers, Car Lot Owners, every job in this country has faced the same dilemmas at one time or the other – a process of Natural Evolution preformed before our very eyes.



I'm not really sure what the point of the above post was - assuming that you are saying that commercial seafood harvesting is following in the steps of the failed mom & pop food stores, or auto makers, or wagon makers - I would offer the following difference: none of the professions you have listed have ever had their ability to make a living curtailed by the government telling them that they can only work a certain number of hours a day, or that they are only allowed to manufacture (or catch) a certain number of whatever a day. There's a big difference from not being able to survive because of a lack of market for your product or the inability to compete price wise with the large volume suppliers, then there is when the government ties one hand behind your back and tells you you have to hop on one foot to get to your goal.
Some of your examples failed because their product was outdated and no longer needed. Some failed because they actually priced themselves out of a living because of benefits gained at the cost of their employers (read Union demands). I don't think any of your examples failed because the government curtailed their ability to survive the way they have with the commercial seafood industry.
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« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2008, 06:06:33 PM »

I'm not really sure what the point of the above post was - assuming that you are saying that commercial seafood harvesting is following in the steps of the failed mom & pop food stores, or auto makers, or wagon makers - I would offer the following difference: none of the professions you have listed have ever had their ability to make a living curtailed by the government telling them that they can only work a certain number of hours a day, or that they are only allowed to manufacture (or catch) a certain number of whatever a day. There's a big difference from not being able to survive because of a lack of market for your product or the inability to compete price wise with the large volume suppliers, then there is when the government ties one hand behind your back and tells you you have to hop on one foot to get to your goal.
Some of your examples failed because their product was outdated and no longer needed. Some failed because they actually priced themselves out of a living because of benefits gained at the cost of their employers (read Union demands). I don't think any of your examples failed because the government curtailed their ability to survive the way they have with the commercial seafood industry.

I believe the government did indeed make laws requiring a LICSENE NEEDED for many of those trades which is indeed government regulation I believe even to have a car lot you need to be bonded by government regulations, YES I believe there was government intervention even down to the local butcher shop - just the fact that the government tells you what you need to have or not have to stay in business is government intervention, you may be blind to those facts either intentionally or nonintentionally.

I also believe with out Government regulations on the fishing industry it would be fished out of existence today. My foundation for my belief ........................how many fisherman today agree with the regulations either recreational or commercial .........yes the industry is over fished and there will be less fisherman in the future, the small guy will sell out change professions or work for the bigger guy whom bought him out.

I believe everything I said has everything to do with the subject, of course I do not believe everyone who reads it will agree with it as I have read many things here and just wonder, ya just wonder. I see retired and educated people competing with a 14 yr old and bashing his brains in - I have fun with him I do - but come for one to feel like they have a place in life to bash a 14 yr old - its like the TV show Am I smarted then a 5th grader.........
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« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2008, 06:30:32 PM »


DNR numbers 8% of the total catch over 3 or 4 years was by recs. If 92% of you water was leaking out of your water tank via one hole and  8% percent via another hole which one would you attempt fixing first for the fastest results.

Where did you see these numbers? I thought that the whole point of licensing crabbers was to find out how many recs there are.
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« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2008, 11:45:38 PM »


DNR numbers 8% of the total catch over 3 or 4 years was by recs. If 92% of you water was leaking out of your water tank via one hole and  8% percent via another hole which one would you attempt fixing first for the fastest results.

Where did you see these numbers? I thought that the whole point of licensing crabbers was to find out how many recs there are.

There is a PDF file you can download from their site (I think ) yes it is the one from the meeting that night and they have their guesstimates in there.......only guess at this point ..........no data to back it up.

I have the pdf file give me email in bmail and I can send it..........
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I wish to die like my father did, in his "sleep" - unlike the screaming passengers aboard the plane he was piloting.

There are no passengers on spaceship earth. We are all crew.    Marshall McLuhan
.
Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh
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« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2008, 01:12:17 AM »

I'm not really sure what the point of the above post was - assuming that you are saying that commercial seafood harvesting is following in the steps of the failed mom & pop food stores, or auto makers, or wagon makers - I would offer the following difference: none of the professions you have listed have ever had their ability to make a living curtailed by the government telling them that they can only work a certain number of hours a day, or that they are only allowed to manufacture (or catch) a certain number of whatever a day. There's a big difference from not being able to survive because of a lack of market for your product or the inability to compete price wise with the large volume suppliers, then there is when the government ties one hand behind your back and tells you you have to hop on one foot to get to your goal.
Some of your examples failed because their product was outdated and no longer needed. Some failed because they actually priced themselves out of a living because of benefits gained at the cost of their employers (read Union demands). I don't think any of your examples failed because the government curtailed their ability to survive the way they have with the commercial seafood industry.

Did it to truck drivers, limiting the hrs we can work and the over the road guys need to sleep at certain times and at certain lengths.  Don't get me started on log books and [curd].  Than after 9/11, the TSA decided to get creative with the ways to bust balls. 1 employee can screw up enough with stupid things and now DOT will pull the transpertation license and the whole company is out of work because of 1 or 2 guys.
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